Bruce Turgon is yet another exceptional musician that has spent a lengthy career making other people look good. Finally he gets the chance to shine under his own name, with his debut solo album for Frontiers Records.

Great to talk to you Bruce, time to talk the fabulous Outside Looking In album.
Nice to hear from you.

First of all - congrats on a great album that seems to have captured the imagination of a lot of fans.
Thank you - I'm very gratified to see all the positive response it's gotten so far.

To take things back to the start – for those that don't know – where did you career begin? The first time I remember hearing of you was on Lou Gramm's Ready Or Not solo debut, but the partnership went back further than that, didn't it?
In the early 70's, I developed a musical association and friendship with Lou Gramm, who lived very close to me in upstate NY. With our band Black Sheep, we worked our way up through the club circuit to eventually become the first American band signed to Chrysalis Records, and then recorded 2 albums for Capitol Records.
It was during this period that we truly started to develop our songwriting skills. By '76, Black Sheep was over, Lou had moved to NYC to work on what would become Foreigner, and I had an offer to work in LA.
I continued writing, recording and touring with various artists (Warrior/Billy Thorpe/Nick Gilder, etc,) and my own bands throughout the early 80's. In late '85, Lou contacted me about writing with him for his first solo effort. Our writing partnership was strong - we worked throughout the next year. In early '87, he released “Ready Or Not” which yielded the hit single, “Midnight Blue”

Looking back through the credits on that album - you were responsible for a great majority of the music and co-wrote many of the songs. I must admit I did not take that in fully at the time. You must have been very proud of the major success that album had.
It was great on many levels. After being apart from Lou and having worked with so many other musicians that I had little or no connection with, I really appreciated the opportunity to collaborate with my friend again. From the beginning of the songwriting process there was a great creative momentum, which continued throughout the recording phase.
Pat Moran was an integral part of that process in that he encouraged individual creativity and spontaneity, while keeping us focused throughout. Besides my own album, working on "Ready Or Not" was probably my most satisfying recording experience and yes, I was proud of the success we had

Long Hard Look was quite different though. Whereas Ready Or Not was a collaborative effort and a more cohesive record, Lou used a host of different players and different writers for Long Hard Look and although I love the album, it sounded like it was recorded - in parts. Any thoughts on your involvement in that record now, looking back?
Well, it was recorded in parts - in fact there are two different versions. We recorded one with Eric Thorngren, and while there were some good moments, it was not right, so Peter Wolf stepped in and completed the album that was released. Peter took the elements from the original recordings that he liked (which were precious few) and built on it with, as you say, a host of different players and writers, and it was during this time that I decided to tour with Steve Stevens.
I had nothing to do with this version of the record until near the end of the recordings, but just prior to leaving for NYC to begin Atomic Playboys rehearsals, Lou asked me to come to LA and work on it. For a couple of days I played bass and rhythm guitars and sang backing vocals with Lou. Like you, I feel the album is good, but fragmented - it seems to live somewhere between a pop and a hard rock record.

The move to a band name - Shadow King and a stable line up - what was the thinking behind that? It was more or less, the same set up as Ready Or Not, yet with Vivian Campbell added and a tougher sound. You and Lou co-wrote the record together, just as you had at the start. What prompted Lou to get back to basics with you?
We did eventually tour after Long Hard Look and it brought us back together again. After the tour, we started to write and had laid the groundwork for what was meant to be his next solo album. However, Lou's management and record label felt it would be stronger if there was a band identity. I was not in favor of it, but nevertheless, we went about the process of auditioning musicians and settled on Vivian Campbell and Kevin Valentine- both great players.

I could perhaps see yourself happy to be in a band situation as previously all your efforts musically were credited to Lou Gramm solely, but now perhaps you could share the limelight. Is that what happened?
Not really. As I mentioned, a band wasn't my personal druthers. If it had developed organically, it might have made more sense to me, but Shadow King was a completely manufactured situation. I have great respect for Lou and his accomplishments and I really didn't feel that whatever success we had achieved to that point, needed to be watered down with a new band identity to promote - it was like starting over to me. However, because I had both a friendship and a business obligation to Lou, I tried to find a middle ground between our original vision and what was now expected, but with varying degrees of success.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but the Shadow King record is to this today routinely debated on my message board – with some still not 'getting' that album, but many others (myself included) regard it as a classic and somewhat of a highly underrated and under sold record!
Thank you - regardless of sales, I always felt it was an album that distanced us from the pack in those days and would stand the test of time. I do know that there is a strong following from the people that are aware of it, but I didn't realize they were still debating the merits of it…

After listening to Outside Looking In, I instantly knew where the talent behind Shadow King came from. Were you disappointed that album did not take off as it should have? And do you have any idea why it did not? Did the label drop the ball, or what?
Thank you again and I appreciate that you recognize my contribution, but at its core, the heart and soul of the record is a collaboration between Lou and myself, very similar to "Ready Or Not".
In fact, a harder, more intense version of that record is what I had originally intended to accomplish prior to the whole band thing. Musically, because of my songwriting contributions and the instruments I played, it's weighted in my direction, but all the players contributed excellent, vital performances. However, early on, it was determined by Lou and producer Keith Olsen, that I should establish the rhythm section and song identities by playing the core instruments as I had done on the demos.
This created distrust and animosity, which we never really overcame. After everyone's eventual participation, the fact that a good album emerged was not enough to hold us together. The whole Shadow King experience was frustrating for all the musicians involved in that everyone was compromised in the process and there was no cohesive thread to make it feel or act like a band.
Lack of sales was just another step down that road, but not totally unexpected by me because despite the marquee value of the players, it was a new entity that would need to be heavily promoted and we released that album just as grunge was happening. The album was lumped in with all the other metal bands, which I never considered it to be.
Of course, I would have liked the album to sell, but it wasn't really a surprise when it didn't.

You followed Lou back to Foreigner, for arguably one of the band's finest and most mature records in Mr. Moonlight. Again, a classic record that continues to find fans that missed it back in the day, but another record that was criminally under-promoted and under sold. What went wrong in this particular case?
Again, I agree with you - it is a very musical, mature record. I think the fact that it was somewhat different from previous albums, plus coming from a new band lineup, it was probably hard to embrace by some of the fan base. Also, Mick and Lou had made a label and management change, so the traditional promo/marketing machine was not in place and although we worked very hard at promoting and toured extensively in support of "Moonlight", it didn't translate to great sales

You continued to tour with Foreigner and Lou for sometime - up until not too long ago. In fact, I saw you guys live in Toronto in 1993 - fabulous show. Why did things come to an end and what happened with your relationship with Lou?
There was no definitive end to my participation in Foreigner - it just faded away. We ended the 2002 tour and all was well, but when Mick and Lou went to Europe for the "Night Of The Proms" shows, old rivalries flared and they once again reached an impasse in their relationship.
Consequently, there was no Foreigner tour or recording planned for the next year. Lou wanted to tour solo, and I put together a show that focused on his (and to a certain extent, our) career highlights. It was a very long, difficult tour and a hard time for Lou personally. By the end of it, we were both exhausted and it was around this time that I was approached by Frontiers about doing a solo record. I wanted to take a break from touring and decided that I would finally commit to doing my own album. Lou put a band together to continue doing shows and recording, so really, we have just gone about our own projects for the time being. He is meant to be releasing a Christian album soon and I look forward to hearing it.

Moving on to the fabulous Outside Looking In - was there a portion of the songs featured on this album that were intended for a second Shadow King album?
They sound sonically compatible - or...were some of the songs originally demoed for a solo project? How many were written for this project after being signed by Frontiers?
Songs written for future Shadow King - none. The initial ideas for "Walk Thru Fire" and "Living A Lie" were developed in the early 90's in anticipation of a solo album that I obviously never recorded. The bonus track for the Japanese release, "Walk The Walk", was an idea I started with Lou around '91-'92 for what was to be his next solo album, before we went to Foreigner. However, the version on "Outside Looking In" is considerably different. The core ideas for "Heart So Strong" and "These Tears Must Fall" were written in the mid to late 90's, but have also been majorly revamped for this album. Everything else is new material.

Once again we find you playing a majority of the instruments - how challenging is it to play/record and then mix yourself into the perfect result?
For this record it was absolutely necessary for me to play most of the instruments and sing - it is, after all, a true solo album… I don't know if it's a blessing or a curse, but at a songs inception, I generally have a picture in my mind's eye of what it should be like and spend all my time in pursuit of that, so it's better for me to just play the instruments rather than try and communicate what I want. Mixing, however, is another thing completely and while I do have a definitive opinion, I also realize that I cannot be entirely objective with such a wealth of material. Dennis Ward did a great job mixing and mastering and it was no small feat - there was an enormous amount of data for him to handle, but we worked well together and got great results.

Some fantastic guests on the album too – first of all, Denny Carmassi on drums – how did you know Denny (one of the great rock n roll drummers!)
About 10 years ago, I tried to recruit Denny for Foreigner, but he was busy with Whitesnake. However, from those initial conversations, we remained friends and eventually I was able to get him to tour with Foreigner in 2002. When I decided to do this album, he was my first call and he absolutely played a vital role in the power and feel of this record. I'm very grateful for his contribution and friendship and yes, he is one of rock's great drummers.

And solo guitar parts from the likes of Rocket Richotte and Ronnie Montrose!
Both are good friends and amazing guitarists as well as Scott McKinstry, who while he is not as well known, did some really great work as well.

And lastly - backing vocals from a good friend of mine - Ricky Phillips. A fellow LA bud?
Yes, and a very good friend that I finally had the opportunity and pleasure to collaborate with. We had a lot of fun working at Ricky's studio, both in the recording, but also the post work hang… We actually did two backing vocal sessions - one with Ricky alone, the other with Rick and Tom Gimbel, which was also very cool and great fun…

Lou Gramm provides backing vocals. Were those vocals from some of the original sessions or did Lou come in to help out an old friend?
Lou sings on songs we wrote together. They were recorded during those writing sessions and worked great as I continued to develop this album.

After getting to know this album, it's easy to see what Bruce Turgon's sound is - it is very distinct. Previously I wouldn't have been able to definitively state that. Is it nice to finally get a solo release out there?
At this point in my career, the recognition factor was one of the major reasons for doing a solo album. My approach is a little off the beaten path and I don't expect everyone to get it - but I appreciate that some do. Collaborations can be great, but it generally means compromise to some degree, at least for me. There's been much speculation over the years as to what my contributions have been to all these high profile projects, so for anyone who has followed my career and wondered, I think "Outside Looking In" is revealing.

Very revealing\ Bruce! Favourite songs? I love These Tears Must Fall, Living A Lie, Any Other Time...Walk Thru Fire also...
Well, it is a solo album in which I wrote or co-wrote all of the songs, so choosing favorites is difficult as they're meaningful in one way or another. However if I had to pick one, "On A Wing And A Prayer" encompasses most of the elements that are important to me for this kind of record.

What next then Bruce? Will we see another solo album in 2006/2007?
I'm not sure yet. Right now, all my attention is on this album, although I am continuing to write. Much really depends on the outcome of "Outside Looking In". However, I do also have an opportunity to score a film later next year as well as developing a very artistic project that I'm not at liberty to elaborate on at the moment. I've been approached to produce some younger bands and am considering it, depending on how their songs develop. We'll see…

Is there anything else you are working on? Do you do a lot of session work in LA?
I'm not really a studio gun for hire. Although I have done session work in years past, I really tend to get involved more in projects that I can sink my teeth into on a few different levels. I've done quite a bit of TV/film work over the last few years and will be doing more as I really enjoy it.

Anything else you would like to add Bruce?
Just that I would like to thank you, Andrew, and everyone who has followed my career and supported my work all these years. “Outside Looking In” is the next step down this road - I hope you enjoy it!

Many thanks for talking today and I look forward to more music to follow soon I hope!
Thanks again Andrew, and Merry Christmas!

Something a little different today... When a mate sends you a Steve Perry interview - you print it! Canadian BW&BK journo Mitch Lafon talked to the great vocalist Steve Perry late last week and has granted me permission to print the interview here in full.
Former Journey vocalist and general melodic rock legend Steve Perry talks about the new Journey live DVD and much more...

At one time, Steve Perry was THE voice of melodic rock. Both fans and radio-programmers alike couldn't wait to hear his latest (be it with Journey or solo) multi-million selling song of a generation, but for almost a decade his voice has been silenced due mainly to a seemingly self-imposed exile from the music business. By the fall of 2005, he was back (sort of) doing a limited amount of print only press to help promote the Journey: Live in Houston 1981 Escape Tour DVD that he produced. In this rare and candid interview, he looks back at what was and what may be.

Steve Perry: “Talk to me – where are you?”

Mitch Lafon: In Montreal...

SP: “It's so beautiful up in Montreal. I was on tour one time up in Canada with a band called The Privilege when I was a teenager. They hired me as a singer and I was one of their frontmen and we ended up in Quebec and Montreal. In Quebec we stayed at the Chateau Frontenac and my big thrill was having onion soup at the Chateau Frontenac.”

ML: Maybe, you'll come back up here on vacation or for a show?

SP: “Yeah, but how about in the spring? Is that ok?”

ML: Let's talk about the DVD – Live in Houston 81. Why did you accept to get involved with the project? Wouldn't it be too much of a heartache?

SP: “The answer is yes – it was too much of a heartache to look back. When I first heard the tapes and I remember that show, it was too painful to think what it once was, but the only thing I could not do was... I'm a fighter for the music. I'm a fighter for the songs and a fighter for the performances and I refuse to let them be evaporated into time. If I do anything, I'm going to fight for those performances to be heard and the band is out doing what they're doing and I was approached by SONY to do it, so I said absolutely. Since, I produced the first compilation DVD. So, I got Allen Sides and we did the 5.1 and stereo mixes together then I did the editing. The interviews and all that was painful too. It was tough.”

ML: Will you be doing more DVDs like this?

SP: “I don't know if my heart can handle it.”

ML: You've been away from the band for quite awhile...

SP: “Since May '98”

ML: And you've also been away from the public for quite awhile...

SP: “Except for the World Series with the White Sox.”

ML: How was that?

SP: “That was excellent. It was so exciting. I just couldn't believe it and they adopted the 'Don't Stop Believin'' song back in July as their mascot and when they won and were going to the World Series; their communications director wanted to try and get me to game one. I got a phone call and went out there and was there for game one and two and was getting ready to leave and they said you can't go. You got to go to Houston and I had to think about that because they had booked me for all these interviews to promote this DVD. It felt good to be wanted, so next thing I knew – I'm flying to Houston for game 3 (which lasted 5 hours and 45 minutes) and I was on another planet when we won that one and game four they won and swept'em. It was unbelievable. They swept the Astros.”

ML: Good city to be in to be promoting a Houston 1981 DVD...

SP: “I didn't start the promotion there. I actually came back to LA and started doing phone calls. It was actually very funny.”

ML: You've been out of the limelight since '98. You did the Journey Behind The Music, but you really haven't put out any music. What's going on? Are the interviews and new DVD... are you coming back? Is Steve Perry going to be singing for us soon?

SP: “You know I love singing again. I've been pulling out of it and I've been missing in action for sure... I put a lot of effort in trying to put Journey back together for the Trial By Fire era and I worked hard with those guys so that we would keep our original integrity and write some good music and we did. Then I had that hip problem and it crashed on me. I had to go have surgery. There were some mistakes made and they checked out a few singers and they got tired of sitting around and one thing lead to another and we split again...”        

ML: For the final time?

SP: “Well, I think so. Only because I said to them in January of '98 when I got this phone message that said 'go out and do whatever you want to do, but do not call it Journey.' That fractures the stone to me; that breaks it. I was given an ultimatum and I don't respond well to ultimatums.”

ML: Not that anybody should. Now, the hip thing was a degenerative problem. Is it getting better?

SP: “It's completely replaced. It's very good. It's beyond better.”

ML: So, you're 100% physically?

SP: “Well, I have some other physical issues. I'm not a teenager anymore.”

ML: Do you see yourself going back into the studio?

SP: “I've been thinking about the good side about this whole split up with the band that happened in May of '98; which is that I could not be kept under contract while they replaced me with a sound-alike or whatever he was... fish or cut bait. The bottom line is that the label had to let me go. So, I haven't had a record deal since May '98 and you've got to know that I signed my record deal with Columbia in '78. That was 20 years of being signed to a label. It's been a real pleasure not having contracts lurking over me... obligations and extensions until you deliver. Oh, please! It's been nice to fall back into your own life and so that's what's happened. I'm no longer in the band since May '98 and I had the surgery seven or eight months after 'that' January phone call... so, you know, I'm just living my life and I have been entertaining the idea of just getting into the studio, but it's a tough thing.”


ML: Have you been writing at all?

SP: “I've got all kinds of stuff written. Writing isn't a problem, it's...”

ML: It's not stage fright at this point in your career?

SP: “ No, it's just what do I want to do? I love R&B. I love rock. I love techno. I love remixes. I love acoustic. I love everything. When I come up to LA, I'll spend two days watching someone record 172 pieces of score. I sat back a year or so ago and watched Alan Silvestri conduct a 175 piece orchestra for Van Helsing (movie). So, when I watch that kind of arranging... I love the power of that. So, I just don't know what to do, but I'll probably jump in the studio with a four-piece section and just start having some fun and maybe do some covers just to get my feet wet. I sat in the studio for six weeks with this DVD mixing it in stereo then tore in down and mixed in 5.1... that was one of the best pleasures I've had other than the emotional aspect of being dragged through the plethora of emotions from 'what happened' to 'we were great' to 'look how young we were' and remembering all the stupid things we were doing to each other when we didn't know what we had.”

ML: You've got that built-in Journey fan base that wants to hear you do that melodic rock again...

SP: “Yeah, exactly, but I don't know if I want to become a parody of myself.”

ML: If you do a comeback album and deliver something the fans aren't expecting...

SP: “I may do a comeback album or I may do one track; load it onto ITunes and go home. I don't know.”

ML: So it is something you're thinking of?

SP: “I don't have management... I have completely shut down the store. The store has been shut down forever. I own steveperry.com, but I haven't flown it. I've really had to let go because emotionally... to be perfectly honest with you, if I do decide to sing again and record again, I'm going to do it for the right reasons. It's not going to be because people want a comeback record that's calculated... people come up to me all the time and say 'you should do a big band album like Rod Stewart. It would sell.' That's probably true...”

ML: It is true – it would sell gangbusters...

SP: “And?”

ML: But if you don't like it, what does that matter?

SP: “I have a spin on that. I would do that differently than anybody else's, but I can't talk about it and I don't necessarily want to do a big band album.”

ML: And I imagine you don't want to do an album of ten 'Open Arms' or ten 'Oh, Sherry'...

SP: “That's right. I don't want to sit there and (sings) 'start spreading the news...' I don't really.”

ML: It would be interesting to get you singing again and with all due respect you are one of the greatest voices of the last thirty years...

SP: “That's so kind of you to say because they've only been saying that in the last five years. They certainly weren't saying that years ago. We were considered the band that wasn't cool. It was the bands with the skinny ties, the checkered shirts and the Flock Of Seagulls' haircut that were considered cool. We were not considered timeless at all, but as time has proven and we're fortunate that the music has made the voyage with us so far.”
ML: What do you attribute that too? Here we are in 2005 and you're hawking a show from 1981 and it's still timeless, it still sounds great, the musicianship is tight and the vocals are perfect... What is it about Journey that got you this far? Why didn't you just fade away like the Flock Of Seagulls?

SP: “Well, it's because it was a real band. When I joined them they were a band and when we replaced Ansley Dunbar with Steve Smith – it became a bigger band. When Jonathan Cain came along and I started writing with him... I had written all songs with Neal from 'Anyway You Want It' to whatever and that was one kind of band, but when Jonathan came along we turned another corner in the evolution of the band. This particular tour (Escape) was the first time Jonathan was onstage and it turned the corner. The work we had done previous had built a fan base and now that they were really showing up we were turning a corner musically and they just liked it. We didn't have any calculated things. There was nothing pre-calculated about the music ever. Never did we second guess, it was just 'let's do this. Ok.' If you listen to the albums, I don't know how many groups you'll find that have 'Separate Ways' and 'Still They Ride'. That's left and right. You go onto Escape and you'll get 'Who's Crying Now', 'Open Arms' or from other albums 'Dead Or Alive', 'Where Were You'... these are all on the DVD by the way, but we were all over the map. 'Good Morning Girl' was a little acoustic piece. 'Patiently' was the first song I wrote with Neal when I was waiting to get into the band and I had dreams of being a singer in a rock 'n roll band. I sat in a hotel with him while he was out opening for Emerson Lake and Palmer and I wrote 'Patiently' and that's what those lyrics are about – 'for your lights to shine on me. For your song inside of me this we bring to you.' That's what it's about. I was dying to get into this thing, but from the heart stand point - not from a calculated stand point and today everything is so calculated. Don't you think? The music business has become like the movie business...”

ML: Also, the music business doesn't develop an artist anymore. It's give me a hit single and get the heck out of here...

SP: “Isn't that sick? The guys who helped build the Journey fan base were record label executives like Al Teller and all the guys that worked at the label at the time that are escaping my mind. They helped believe in the band and they would go three, four singles deep into every album...”

ML: They would also go three albums... You had three albums to make it. First one was the trial, second was the hit or miss and the third one was the do or die...

SP: “More than that. We had Infinity, Evolution, Departure, Escape...”

ML: They would give you three albums minimum to develop. Now, you get single one maybe two...

SP: “That's right. It's like television. They release a TV show and if the numbers aren't good – it's cancelled next Tuesday. It's unbelievable – there's no faith anymore and nobody believes anymore. That's why it is the way it is. There are corporate executives that should say to their superiors 'this is the single – we have to go on it' would they ever say that? No. Would they ever say 'the band is crazy about this song and believes in this song? No, they won't say that either. Will they ever say 'I went and saw the show and this song is getting a lot of audience response. I don't know why, but we should go on it and ask radio to play this... NO! They'll do what's calculated and safe.”

ML: They want to appeal to the lowest common denominator and get as much money out of it as possible...

SP: “They are not making decisions based on belief. They are making decisions based on fear. They assess it and say 'well, let's not do this and we shouldn't do that... so, what's left? Let's do that.' They're decision making process is based on calculated fear assessment. Instead of – 'wow – I don't know what it is about this one song, but I sure do like it.' Those guys are gone; they just don't do that anymore. I'll tell you a quick story – 'Who's Crying Now' that song was intentionally recorded and arranged so that the solo (back then songs had solos) was at the end. The song goes out on a solo and that song is long. The record label came to us and said 'as soon as the solo starts you'll have to fade it or radio won't play it.' I said ' well, radio can fade out and go onto the news. I don't care, but we're not going to cut the solo.' They insisted that if it said it was four minutes fifty seconds or whatever radio won't even add it to their playlist. So, I told them to put whatever on it... three minutes whatever, but I'm not fading the solo and they were adamant about it and said we were killing the song. It's not going to be a hit because you won't fade it, so just fade it. It's no big deal. I said 'look – Neal played the most beautiful solo on this thing. It's simple, heartfelt and feels timeless; the melodics are timeless and I do not want to kill that solo. So, fought for it, the song becomes a hit and the stations never pulled out of the solo. When it goes to that melody (sings melody) – it's timeless and it's not the melody that's in the song. It's another melody; so is that so wrong? No! So, I'm glad we fought for it against all odds. Plus, Neal would have been really crushed... he would have been destroyed.”

ML: I'm surprised the record company didn't go ahead and just cut if off...

SP: “They would do that today which is why I'm glad I'm not signed right now. I would probably take a bat to somebody's desk.”

ML: That's the one new advantage, if you were to release new music, you don't have to go through a label. You can go through ITunes...

SP: “Isn't that amazing? I think the Internet is so freeing to music as we've come to know it. I think it's the best thing that has ever happened. It's phenomenal because as an artist you've never had so many choices. You just never have. I could get somebody right now to build my own site and put downloads on my own site. I've yet to do it though.”

ML: Is there a reason?

SP: “I'm just a little bit... you're going to ask me 'what is it, right?' But I don't know.”

ML: It's the question everybody has been asking, right?

SP: “No, we've been talking mainly about the DVD and the performances.”

ML: I apologize...

SP: “We can talk about this. It's ok. I don't know – it's a tough one... (pauses)... Twenty-four years ago when I did that DVD – when we recorded it for MTV... (pauses) It was a different landscape at that time, of course. MTV had aired for the first time in August of '81 and three months later we were recording this for MTV. It was a brave new world with this video music thing... (pauses) It was a different time – we had a mission as a group... (pauses) I emotionally was unstoppable... (pauses) My mother was alive and pulling for me. My father (though they weren't together) was pulling for me. My grandfather was alive... The whole landscape of that has changed... (pauses) You lose some of the incentive that you didn't realize was driving you to do good... to do it... to do IT. Now, that it's been done I'm trying my best to digest it. When I was doing this DVD, it was an emotional rollercoaster that I didn't expect. A friend of mine warned me because he knows me well. He's a TV director and he said 'I know you. You're going to get in there and be mixing and editing and it's going to be rough on you.' I said ' Ah, no biggie man – c'mon I did the other DVD.' And he said 'but that was assembling videos and synching up new masterings. This is going to be different. It's like making a mini-film.' And oh, God – he was right. It drove me... It dragged me through a plethora of emotions that I didn't expect. When I heard 'Open Arms' I got choked up. There are certain vocal things I did in 'Open Arms' that I'm not sure I'll be able to pull off exactly like that again because it was such a moment and I had reached beyond the master recordings to what I knew it could be. For example the lyric in the second verse 'wanting you near' that lyric is sung exactly the way I wanted it to be sung and I didn't know I hit it. I didn't know I got it. So, I'm sitting there mixing and watching the QuickTime video because I have to pay attention to audio and visual... so I'm watching it and just being dragged through... (pauses) through the whole thing again. The Whole Thing AGAIN! I'm dragged through our time together. I'm dragged through, 'what happened?' We were great together and then I'm dragged through the people who thought we weren't great and who used to belittle us in the press and I thought 'fuck them too'. How can that be fucked up? We were great! See you assholes... you know what I mean? We weren't fucked up – you used to tell us we were faceless and corporate and all these horrible things and all we were trying to do was keep our focus and play what we loved. Now, I'm looking back at it for the first time as a person in the audience... I'm not in the band and it's been years since I've been in the band. It's been years since I've been on that stage. I'm an older guy and this young kid up there on that stage believed in what he believed in and damned if it wasn't pretty good and I got emotional about it. I just felt vindicated. I really felt vindicated for my beliefs and my faith and my tenacity that I got such a bad rep for... it's just that I was NOT going to lay down. Betty Davis said “if you have a bad reputation – you must be doing something right.'

ML: She's absolutely right. It must really feel good after all these years. I was around back then and remember people complaining about your voice, that you were corporate and everything you just said...

SP: “They said it about a lot of groups.”

ML: I'm a Kiss, Cheap Trick and Aerosmith fan – all of those groups got dragged through the mud back then...

SP: “Foreigner got hit... everybody got it. They all were faceless.”

ML: Except Kiss – that only had a face, but no music talent, right? Not only did those groups survive, but are still setting trends to some extent. Anybody who looks into melodic rock has to start at Journey – you just have to.

SP: “And that's a big legacy to live up to. At the time, it was just living up to your own expectations. Now, it's become something else. Something you always hoped it would become. How do you deal with that?'

ML: I have no idea...

SP: “By the way if you're going to ask these questions – we kind of have to answer these questions as to what was going on with me back then versus now. It's a perspective that's interesting. A lot of it too... the music at that time... you were forced to perform everything. There was only one way to sell what you believed in and that was perform it and that was going to be live. MTV was three months old when we recorded this DVD. It was baby in diapers – it had no idea what it was. It had no power and I tried to go back to MTV and see if they had other elements or extra footage lying around and they had nothing because they burned over the tapes of that night. All I had was the final cut because they had no idea what they were going to become. They were too new and nobody had a clue. They were directionless. They were writing the pages as they were turned... everybody was and that reckless abandon is what created what we are calling timeless now.”

ML: Musically, there has been a loss of that 'fire' in bands and in MTV... there is no soul to anything anymore. It's all calculated...

SP: “They always said MTV would change the face of music forever and in some ways it did.”

ML: It did – for the worst.

SP: “It took the performing aspect out of it, but now they are getting back to it. Now, they realize that it's a great medium to promote performance. For a long time, it became a video lip-synch issue and it gave everybody credibility even if they're not performers. There's a lot of careers built on artists that have never performed, but they can make a great video and make a great record... and they were 'artists'. Then they'd decide to go on tour and work that up. A lot of them would run tapes, a lot of them were fake and would have mouth and ear pieces with little microphones in front of their faces and dance around. It was a totally different thing.”

ML: In terms of this performance – the band.. the five guys on stage (Steve, Ross, John, Neal and you) was that the ultimate line-up? Does this represent Journey well?

SP: “That's the quintessential line-up. Although, I don't want to take any credibility away from the line-up that existed with Greg Rollie and Ansley Dunbar. That was the earlier line-up that I joined and had it's own musical direction that was valid. It was a different kind of a band, then it changed when we got Steve Smith in there and Greg Rollie stayed. Then we got Jonathan Cain and I think the band turned a bigger corner. That became the Escape line-up that launched itself to another series of albums, songwriting and performing that was bigger. By bigger I mean it had a bigger pronounced sound to it... a mightier unity of the players than the previous one.”

ML: Jonathan brought a lot to the band... vocals, backing vocals and overall musicianship.

SP: “Yeah – right! And Steve Smith was a fusion drummer who was with Montrose... that's where we saw him play every night and I turned to Neal and said 'this is the guy we should have in our band. This is what we need.' I admit I was making trouble, but I had a gut level... that we had to look at making a change.”

ML: It was a good change...

SP: “Well, time has shown that to be the case, but at the time it had a mixed response.”

ML: By the way – with the producing of the DVD... is that something you see yourself doing more of?

SP: “I love it. I really love it. It's very very emotional and stressful though.”

ML: In general or doing the Journey stuff?

SP: “Both.”

ML: Do you want to do other bands?

SP: “I have shown up many times with little groups... friends of mine and I'll be a fly on the wall and help them. I do it all the time for fun and for free. I've be doing that for years.”

ML: Do you want to sell your services as a record producer? Hey record companies call me up...

SP: “No. I don't want to necessarily do that. There's a couple of groups I would like to do a track with here or there.”

ML: But not a whole album from conception to the final mixes?

SP: “It would depend on the group. If I believed in the group I would do it. If I believed in the song, the singer and the band. It would be easier doing my own thing, but that comes with a whole other set of demons.”

ML: If you did your own thing would you want to produce it?

SP: “Just yesterday, I was thinking for the first time ever 'should I just let it go' because I'm always so involved and that's the problem. I know what I want to hear and it can go against someone else's vision, but at the same time my own vision has built my own direction and sound. So, what am I doing? Do I want to become Cher and 'Do You Believe In Love' and let someone make a left turn for me? I don't know – I'm not that kind of guy. I do hear things completed in my head and try to follow that lead, but I don't know. I do know that I worked hard on this DVD and tried to make it sound contemporary sonically. That's why I chose Bob Ludwig and Allen Sides.”

ML: Satisfied with the final product?

SP: “I'm completely satisfied with the project, but there will always be issues. The sound quality I hear in the studio, you lose when... you know someone will make an MP3 of it. That changes everything. You do one thing to it; it changes it. Echoes respond differently. Digital converters eat echo and it loses some of the lush echoes you worked so hard on. That's just something I have to live with. There are certain things that are easier to do logistically with ProTools on a live project like this than with tape. There were certain pops and clicks in my special wireless mic. It had a lot of vocal qualities that I loved, but it also had a lot of problems because it was transmitter microphone. It would over modulate and there was a couple 'pffs'... it's everywhere and with ProTools you can get rid of it. It's fantastic. So, I was able to clean up problems that back in the day could not have been fixed. It enhanced the performance by not letting something like that distract it. You're in a restorative mode like when you take an old painting and just try to clean it up.”

ML: Any other touch-ups?

SP: “There really wasn't a lot of touch-ups on this. There really wasn't. Not one re-record was done. I will tell you... we did two shows and on the day-off between those shows... we knew we were on tour and we knew it would be aired on MTV with a quick mix. So, we got around one mic and sang the backing vocals against ourselves. So, that we could blend that studio thing we do with the live vocals; so that they would have a little shimmer to them. That's the only thing we did. We called that 'vocal help.'”

ML: That was just for MTV?

SP: “It's on the DVD too.”

ML: But the original ones from way back then?

SP: “Yeah, the band was on tour three months ago and we aren't speaking. So, believe me - we weren't in a room together.”

ML: It speaks volumes about the band that you didn't have to...

SP: “Well, it was great performance. It really was a moment where... I didn't like walking up to the back of the venues and see a recording truck because I would get a little moody and cause a stink about it. I didn't like the idea of having tape running. I like the shows to be free and have nothing hovering over them like 'the tape is running' because it changes the band's ability to be reckless and free. I like reckless and free.”

ML: It also make you over aware...

SP: “It instinctually makes you over aware that tape is running. You get more concerned that things be a little more performed, I'm so glad that there's no fall back to the masters to this performance in Houston. I think once the show started nobody cared... we just played. Though, I did not like to video or tape shows – I'm so glad that this one was because I would have been wrong to not have this one. I would have been really wrong.”

ML: It captures the essence of the band...

SP: “It really does and there's another laying around that we don't know what's going to happen to from 1983 – JFK Stadium in Philly. We had 14 cameras running film.”

ML: You want to produce that?

SP: “I don't know if my heart could take it. By the way I do want to say when you watch the DVD turn the Dolby to off. There is no need for it. It's been digitally recaptured. It will severely change the fidelity.”

ML: Anything else to promote or plug?

SP: “There's a band I like. I think they're fun and reckless called The Rock 'N Roll Soldiers. The lead singer is a talented kid called Marty... they're working on a record right now which I think is coming out on Atlantic. I like it – I believe in them.”

ML: Thank you for your time...

SP: “Thank you very much for your candid questions and your sincere feelings about this. All this is good stuff and I don't mind talking about the fears and where I'm going and where I'm not going and where I've been. I'm trying to put my arms around all of it and when I'm done with that... who knows? I'll either sing some more or maybe just be glad that we had what we had.”

ML: Well, I think I speak for many when I say – we got to hear you sing some more...

SP: “I'll do my best – thank you. I would like to sing with the Rolling Stones one night and if by chance, I record something let's talk again.”

 

Something a little different. Lucas Aykroyd of Vancouver, Canada talks to Sweden's HammerFall. Lucas recently interviewed HammerFall guitarist Oscar Dronjak for a Georgia Straight preview of the band's August 25 concert in Vancouver. There was a ton of left over material, so Lucas kindly sent in the full interview for fans to check out.

HammerFall jumpstarted the European power metal revival with their 1997 release, Glory to the Brave. Since then, they've released four more studio albums (Legacy Of Kings, Renegade, Crimson Thunder, and 2005's Chapter V: Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken). Their hook-laden sound, melding elements of Judas Priest, Europe, and Accept, has resulted in worldwide sales of more than 1 million albums. Interviewer Lucas Aykroyd caught up with guitarist and songwriting mastermind Oscar Dronjak in early August 2005, just after the start of the quintet's Canadian tour.

How did you hook up with fellow power metal artists Edguy for this leg?
Edguy are old friends of ours. We toured together in '99 in Europe. If you play a similar style of music, you tend to end up at the same festivals. So we kept in touch over the years. Most importantly, we have the same booking agency in Europe. When we started looking into options for coming over to North America and doing our own tour, then we asked if Edguy wanted to come with us, because we always said that if we wanted to do a headlining tour, we probably should do it with another band that has some name recognition, too. Give people more for their money, I guess.

What's your main goal for the tour?
Have fun. That's the only thing we can really be sure of. We'll have fun. This is the second show on the tour so far. It's really hard to know what to expect. I really don't know what we're going to expect from the USA. From Canada even less, actually, because we've never been here before. It started out really, really good yesterday. It looks very promising for tonight, too. My hopes are really high, but I keep my expectations low so I won't be disappointed.

What do you think of when you hear the word "Canada"?
Hockey, of course. The [National Hockey League's Toronto] Maple Leafs. Moose.

So will you get your singer, Joacim Cans, to give a shout-out to the fans of the Vancouver Canucks? They've got a Swedish captain with Markus Naslund.
I think we can arrange that. It would be really cool if he said something about that. We were in Toronto yesterday, and Toronto is a classic Swedish team as well with Borje Salming and Mats Sundin. It feels really cool to be in these cities where people are as crazy about hockey as you are yourself.

You were previously supposed to play the Commodore Ballroom in Vancouver with Dio on November 6, 2002. What happened?
[laughs] I have absolutely no idea. Dio didn't play there at all, did he?

Nope. And then I understand your equipment didn't arrive in time for you to play the next night in Seattle either.
Right. I have no idea what happened with the Vancouver gig. We were just the support act on that tour. We weren't informed of anything at all. During the tour, we weren't going anywhere. We didn't cancel any shows more than that. With the Seattle thing, we couldn't play, and that's the only thing I remember. I didn't remember anything about a Vancouver gig. I'm sorry I couldn't give you a better answer!

Chapter V: Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken is by far the longest album title HammerFall's used. What's the story behind that?
It comes from a lot of bad feelings, a lot of jealousy aimed toward HammerFall from people who supported us in the beginning. The great mass of fans, of course, they love the albums, because otherwise we would not be here. Most of the people like it. But there are always a vocal minority who go on the air and then blast everything they hear. Those were the people who were with us in the beginning when HammerFall came out with Glory to the Brave, and they thought it was cool because nobody else was doing this at that time. Eventually more and more bands started doing what we were doing, pretty much, and we got more and more recognition and fans all over the world. Not everyone liked that. Now, I don't really care. If you like the music, fine. If you don't, that's fine too. I'm not doing this to please anybody but myself. But the album title is a statement of where the band is right now. There were some things we had to go through. Certain people on the Internet started complaining, saying: "HammerFall is only in it for the money and they're not true to what they're doing. They don't like the music. They're just doing this to make a quick buck." Having fought for what I believed in for so many years before anything ever happened with the band, I took great offense to that. What happens now, and this is what I take such great offense to, is that people sort of conveniently forget about all these hard years we put in. There were ups and downs during those years, but we never stopped believing in what we wanted to. We never stopped playing the music we loved. But then in 1999 or 2000, people started claimed: "HammerFall only does this for the money." I really took offense to that. Then there was an incident that really brought matters to a head. On August 11, 2002, actually, exactly this date three years ago, when Joacim was assaulted in a bar in our hometown. It came out that the only reason for this was that the guy didn't like HammerFall's music. That's when I said: "Enough is enough. This should not happen anywhere, and especially, absolutely not for this reason." So instead of just ignoring all the badmouthing, we decided to respond to the critics with this. For me, the album title represents HammerFall now. No matter what anyone says or does to us or what happens, we're always going to be unbent, unbowed, and unbroken.

You also had about $30,000 stolen by a member of your entourage after your previous American tour in 2002.
Yeah, that was another BS thing that happened. But that's all in the past now. It was very unfortunate and very annoying. But what are you going to do? The guy just disappeared with all the money and there was nothing we could do about it.

How did you react earlier this year when you found out Chapter V had debuted at number four, right behind the new Judas Priest album, on the Swedish charts?
I was a little bit disappointed, actually, because I thought we would beat them in the first week. In the long run, we certainly did, because our album stayed in the Top Ten for four or five weeks, which has never happened to us before, and it certainly didn't happen to Judas Priest this time. But this is only because I know Sweden, and I know what kind of success we have achieved there. If we had ended up one position behind Judas Priest in any other country, I would have been ecstatic. But being from Sweden, we had high hopes for it. Those were actually met, anyway. The position on the chart is just a number. It's the actual number of albums, the number of fans that like your music that really matters. There's nothing to complain about, if you know what I mean.

Is it weird for you to be competing with a band you grew up idolizing?
Of course it is. I would never look at it in terms of "we're competing with them," even if it might sound like that. They are heroes of mine, and I really love them. For me they're always going to be number one.

Coming from Gothenburg, where would you say HammerFall fits into the so-called "Gothenburg sound"?
Not at all, actually. Not for me, anyway. The Gothenburg sound, for me, is what In Flames and Dark Tranquillity originated once. And we don't really have anything to do with that sound-wise. For me, we're just a different thing from that.

Even though Jesper Stromblad of In Flames did a lot of work with HammerFall in the early days?
Jesper has been a friend of mine for 15 years now. He was in the first installation of HammerFall. He was a member. So it was only natural that he continued working on the albums. But there's such a big difference between our musical styles, between In Flames and HammerFall, that I don't think we really have any place in the Gothenburg sound.

There's an incredible amount of melody, of sing-along quality in HammerFall's music. Where does that influence come from?
Partly Judas Priest, for one. When HammerFall started out in 1993, all we tried to do was create the kind of music we'd like to buy or listen to ourselves at concerts. In essence, we tried to create the ultimate heavy metal band, according to what we think and not what anybody else thinks. It would be stupid to listen to other people when you play metal. You should just do what feels right for you. The melodies themselves come from the music that we listened to. The minute I started listening to heavy metal, when I was around ten, I never looked back. I don't have a specific moment when I thought: "This is the music for me." It became clear for me, without me even thinking about it, that heavy metal is what I love. Then I started looking into other bands that I liked. So both Joacim and I have two very extensive 80's heavy metal collections on vinyl, because we were into that very much and still are to a certain extent. That's where the influences come from, everything we listened to in the 80's, which was melodic, most of the stuff.

Just about every well-known band from Sweden has that melodic touch, whether it's ABBA, Roxette or Yngwie Malmsteen.
You're absolutely right. I just don't have a good answer as to why. I think maybe ABBA is to blame a little bit for this, because they were the melody masters, in my opinion. Nobody could write melodies the way they did. I think they set the tone for a lot of the following acts. I'm not influenced by ABBA. I didn't listen to ABBA at all in the 80's or 90's. But in the last couple of years, I started to appreciate the band. I realized what incredible songwriters Benny and Bjorn were. It's unbelievable how they could put together so many melodies and great songs 30 years ago. I have nothing but respect for them. I think they might have had something to do with it. In Sweden, no matter whether you like ABBA or not, you hear their music right from youth. It's just all around.

Your European stage sets include pyrotechnics, castles with drawbridges, giant icebergs, and things like that. How much of that will North American fans get to see?
They'll get to see some icebergs, but only on our backdrop. We have no pyro because it would be too expensive to bring it over here and use it, in terms of the permits. Actually, what the people will get on this tour is just a heavy metal band and 100% energy on stage, with a backdrop. That's about it. We have two sidedrops, too. But otherwise, there isn't anything going on besides us and the music, which I like. I mean this is a big difference from what we normally do. We have a much greater connection with the audience now, because they're much closer.

Did you try to get a work permit for Hector, your warrior mascot?
[laughs] No, we never tried. Actually, Hector isn't really around much anymore. We haven't used him for this whole tour. It's partly because we decided we didn't want to use him, and also because, he's got this breastplate, which is sort of the main element in the costume. But no one has seen it since February 25, 2003, when we played in Oslo. It's probably hanging on somebody's wall somewhere.

In the past, you've been known to wear a long cape on stage. Have you ever had any accidents involving the cape?
I had a really close call once. But it wasn't on stage. We were doing an autograph session for the Renegade album in Gothenburg, and we were driving motorcycles to the record store. It was 100 meters down the street. But we were driving really slowly, and I was in front of [drummer] Anders Johansson, luckily, and he saw my cape had gotten stuck in the wheel. Nothing really happened. He shouted: "Stop, stop!" If I hadn't stopped, it would have probably yanked me backwards off the bike. It was fastened in a way that it would have pulled me with it before it broke. That was really close. Nothing happened except that the cape got a bit dirty. I was really worried after that, because I know from riding a motorcycle what could have happened if we were going faster. But apart from that, no incidents.

What is your explanation for why North Americans are mostly less open to metal music about knights, honor and glory than Europeans are?
I think one of the reasons is that because you had such a major backlash against the melodic music of the 80's, and that's still going strong. It seems like aggressive, attitude-based music is more incorporated with the society over here. That's at least one of the explanations.

Do you ever feel like, "Man, if we'd released Renegade or Crimson Thunder back in the mid-80's, we'd be playing Madison Square Garden now"?
[laughs] No, because we could not have put out those albums in 1983 or 1984, even if we'd been old enough at that time. Our music is so much a product of what we experienced during the 80's that we would never have been able to do that.

AC/DC's Angus Young once said, "The truth is that we've made the same album over and over 14 times!" What do you say to people who claim HammerFall keeps making the same album?
I would say they have no idea what they're talking about. Get into the albums, and you'll realize there is a big difference between them. We're following a path toward somewhere, I don't know where exactly. But we are not going to change our style. I know it's popular to do that in pop music. You go one way with this album, another way with the next. But that's not what heavy metal is about. Heavy metal is such a broad genre for us that I think we still have a lot of stuff within it to explore, and a lot of songs inside us that need to come out. I can admit that the first three albums were similar-sounding in a lot of ways, but also, I think we progressed with each one. But with the two latest ones, Crimson Thunder and Chapter V, I think what we learned with Crimson Thunder is how to put together a complete album instead of just writing ten songs and recording them. Now we write the songs with the album in mind. That gives the album a lot more diversity and variety, which I don't think the first three albums possessed to the same extent.

Can you elaborate on that?
We're just evolving, developing our sound bit by bit. Some artists go by leaps and bounds, but then, they have nowhere to go after that. We're just going in a certain direction, wherever that is. I guess we'll find out on the next album. We work really hard on not repeating ourselves. Of course, we're going to have the same style of songs here and there, but there's not one song that's similar to another one when it comes to the melodies and riffs. The structure may be similar, but what can you do? Sometimes you deviate from it a bit, but it's mostly verse, pre-chorus, and chorus. That's the way you write a good song, in my opinion. Of course, you need variety as well, and that's why we don't use that structure on all the songs. Some of the songs work better that way, but in other cases it's better not to have the chorus after the first pre-chorus or whatever. It's just a matter of what you feel when you write the song.

Is it safe to say HammerFall will never make an all-acoustic album, an album about saving the rainforest, or an album with a guest appearance by a rapper?
I can safely say "it's not very likely" to any of those. The first one might happen [acoustic], and that would be a bonus thing if it was 100% acoustic. The other two I can say with authority that this is never going to happen.

Tell me the craziest HammerFall road story of all time.
The one that immediately comes to mind when I hear this question is something that happened during the Death tour in 1998. We had a different drummer back then, and his name was Patrik Rafling. We pulled a Spinal Tap, actually! We left him at a gas station without realizing it. He was not very happy. I think it was in New Jersey, and we were going to Cleveland or Columbus. What happened was, half of the bus was asleep already, and half of the bus was out eating. So Patrik went to the bus and told the driver: "I'm going to get a Snickers," or something like that, "and then I'm going to bed." And nobody bothered to check for him. But he was still inside the gas station, buying his Snickers, when the bus took off. And Patrik being Patrik, he had no cell phone, no phone number to anyone. Luckily, he had some money. He called his mother in Sweden, who in turn called Nuclear Blast in Germany, who called Nuclear Blast America. When we woke up six hours later, there was about 100 messages on the cell phone from the label rep. Another label rep in New Jersey, luckily there was somebody there, took him to the airport and put him on the plane to Columbus, and so we picked him up there. It was also lucky that we had a day off the next day. We didn't miss a show.

And now Anders Johansson is a solid, permanent member of your band.
Absolutely. I don't think we could live without him anymore. The thing is, Patrik was in the band for two years. Anders has now been in the band for six years: three times as long! But he's still regarded as the new drummer sometimes. What are you going to do? With Anders, he didn't want to tour as much when his kids were really young. So we tried to find a middle ground. Now his kids are 8 and 10 or something like that, so pretty soon they're not going to want to have him around anyway! [laughs] So I think that's not a problem for him anymore. As for Joacim, he's got a little daughter about two years old.

What's one of your favorite memories relating to HammerFall fans?
Well, one of the coolest things I have experienced was when we were in Sao Paolo, Brazil. It was just HammerFall playing, no other bands. Everybody in the venue paid to see us. For us, that made it very special, because we knew it was 100% HammerFall fans there. There was a big curtain in front of the stage, and when the show started, the curtain was lifted and there we were. Before that, I heard there were about 3,000 people in the venue already, and this was about an hour before we started the show. So I took my video camera and Anders and I walked out in front of the curtain, and people just went crazy. I've never heard anything as loud as that. It was unbelievable. It gave me goosebumps. We stood there for about a minute with my camera panning back and forth.

What's the last CD you listened to?
The last album I listened to was Stormwitch, one of my absolute favorite bands. It was their second album, Tales of Terror, from 1985.

You've recorded with personal heroes like Udo Dirkschneider of Accept and Kai Hansen of Helloween. Who else is left on your list of people you'd like to record with?
That's a really long list. If I'm looking at what's feasible, so to speak, it would be having the guitarist from Accept, Wolf Hoffmann, do a solo on our next album. He's my guitar hero. I owe him so much when it comes to musical inspiration, it's ridiculous. He's also a very nice guy. We've met him a lot of times now, and he's almost like a friend. At least every time we see him, we give him a hug, and talk a little bit. He's really nice. That's something I'd love to do. Having someone like Rob Halford do something on the album would be the most awesome experience ever. But I don't think that's going to happen.

The last time you saw Accept, did you try to talk them into making their current reunion a permanent one?
No, I didn't bother with that, because I knew this Accept reunion was just for the festivals this summer. I talked to Udo a lot about this, and he said: "I know Wolf might want to continue with this, and he feels there are certain things we could still do." But Udo said in an interview that as far as he's concerned it's not going to happen, because he has his U.D.O. band. That's where he'll put all his energy after the current reunion is over. Still, I saw them at Wacken, and it was an awesome experience on every level.

Where would you reside if you couldn't live in Sweden?
I would probably move around a bit and find out where I felt at home, where I could root myself, so to speak. I don't really know. I think it would be a place where you have seasons, not just a rainy spring, summer, fall, and winter. [laughs] Sometimes that's what we have where I live in Gothenburg. But apart from that, I don't know. Somewhere that I spoke the language would be really important as well.

What would you do if you weren't playing metal for a living.
Realistically, I would be a teacher, because that's where I was headed before HammerFall started happening. But if I could fantasize, I have two dreams: being a paleontologist or working at a zoo with animals.

Give me your concept of a perfect day.
Well, it doesn't really matter what time I get up as long as I feel rested, because if not, the day's going to be shot to hell after that. Let's say I wake up around 8. I lie around in bed for a little while with my girlfriend, which I don't have right now, but this is a perfect day, so in the perfect world I have one! [laughs] We would enjoy each other for a little while before getting up, and then, because the sun would be shining, we'd go have breakfast in the park, and after that, I'd go home and write a song I was really, really happy with. Then I'd have a few beers and go see the monster lineup of the millennium, which would feature Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Accept, Motley Crue, Alice Cooper, and KISS on the same bill. That would be a really long set, but who cares! [laughs]

What message would you like to give to all the people out there who aren't sure whether they should attend a HammerFall show or not?
I would tell them that if you have any interest in metal and you're open-minded when it comes to melodies, you should not miss this HammerFall/Edguy show. If you do, you'll regret it for the rest of your life. It's never going to happen again on this level. Even if we come back someday with a bigger show, this is something you should not miss. It's going to be a heavy metal party the whole night and something you will never forget. I can guarantee a really good time if you like heavy metal, that's for sure.

 

Mark Free burst onto the scene as a young rock singer in King Kobra. The sales and fame richly deserved may not have followed, but this fine singer has made a huge impact on our melodic rock community with each release seemingly another classic. Signal, Unruly Child and the Long Way From Love solo album are all albums that have attained a cult following and are highly regarded as staples of classic melodic rock and AOR music.
But it all ended too soon. We were left with the music, but longed for more when Mark Free made the ultimate life altering decision to undergo sex change surgery.
It happens everyday in the world around us, but is almost unheard of in the world of rock music. Thanks to the Internet and the ability to interact with fans, Marcie, as she is now known, has made a comeback of sorts – setting up a website and once again saying hello to old fans. Not only that, but making many unreleased demos available so us fans can at least hear some new music.
Marcie has never done a feature interview and I'm very proud to feature this in depth chat about her musical career, her life as it was and as it is now and possibilities for the future.
Many thanks to Marcie for talking openly and answering the questions put to her honestly.

Ok Marcie...I guess the very best place to start is right back at the beginning, as you have had a wonderful career that has produced some real landmark releases as far as the world of melodic rock goes.

Beginning with King Kobra - not too many artists achieve success on their first outing and even though you spent some time working before hand, you must have felt somewhat blessed to be on your way from the outset?
First of all let me say how much I have appreciated all of your wonderful friendship and support all these years. It is a pleasure to speak with you once again.
Yes, King Kobra was my first big break. I felt nervous and excited all at the same time. I was very grateful for the opportunity. I wouldn't really say that selling 50,000 records the first time out was all that much of a success though, but it was a start.

Two albums were recorded - both with a different flair. The debut was a little tougher and Thrill Of A Lifetime is more AOR. Do you have a preference for either release? Which album has withstood the test of time the best?
I really do not have a preference for either that much. It is kind of painful for me to listen to some of that stuff now as it was my first time making a record. I would say that Ready To Strike has to be the quintessential must have for all the KK fans. But my heart is much more into some of the Thrill of A Lifetime stuff as I had more of a hand in the writing and felt like I was starting to get more control over some of the production.

Thrill Of A Lifetime is still heralded as one of those cult classics - why the change of style for that album?
The first album was deemed a failure judging by the small sales figures, and by radio, record company, and MTV standards. Having a guaranteed two record deal up front, we were desperate to get on radio as we knew we only had one more shot before the company could opt to drop us. Carmine called on his long time friend Duane Hitchings to help us craft a more radio friendly sound. So that's what we did.

I don't think the band has ever received credit for it, but you were one of the very first rock bands ever to use rap-delivery in part of a song - Home Street Home being the track in question. What was the story behind that track?
Yeah. Carmine kept trying to make a big deal of that in the press but it always fell on deaf ears. Mick wrote the song while living in a very small one room apartment on a busy street in Hollywood at the time. He would see quite a lot of homeless people walking the streets. Rap isn't one of my forte's.

Of all the great tracks on Thrill Of A Lifetime (Second Time Around, Feel The Heat, Only The Strong), one track sits firmly ahead of the rest - at least as far as I'm concerned and I think this track stands today as one of the great AOR anthems of all time. I speak of Iron Eagle (Never Say Die).
The track was featured in the movie of the same name - what is the story behind this track - was it written for the movie especially or customized around the needs for the movie?
Duane Hitchings had a friend named Jake Hooker (Weird Al Yankovich's mgr.) Together they had an opportunity to write a song for a new movie that was being made called, "Iron Eagle". The movie people had secured a soundtrack album deal with Capitol records. Once that happened our manager (Alan Miller) along with Jake started lobbying Capitol's vice president of A&R to let us do the song since we were already on Capitol's roster. The decision was made to do it and it went on our album as well as the soundtrack album. Making the video with Lou Gossett Jr. was the best part though.

Did it bring the band some good publicity and attention? I must admit, it's where my love affair with your music began - the Iron Eagle soundtrack!!!
Yes, it did get more airplay than any of our other songs as a result of the movie and the soundtrack album.

Either way, it seems the band couldn't capitalize on this as the KK line-up disbanded without recording anything further. What happened at this stage in your career?
The business arrangement between Carmine and the rest of us as set up in the beginning by his manager and their lawyers was inequitable at best. As a result it left very little incentive to remain with the band if it was not going to be a huge success. And it became apparent after the second album tour was over and Capitol had dropped us that it wasn't. Going on the road and touring was very grueling. Once Johnny left for the money W.A.S.P. was offering him, I tried for a while to go through the process of replacing him and moving on, but the chemistry was not as much fun and the guitarists (Dave & Mick) were attempting to move the band in more of a trash metal direction which I really didn't want to do. With no money in my bank account and after two years of touring and no record deal… my heart just wasn't in it any longer.

I guess the very next thing was the Black Roses soundtrack, How did you get involved in this?
Alex Woltman was an apprentice recording engineer at Pasha Studios at the time King Kobra recorded our first album. He had a friend named Elliot Soloman whose father was producing a new monster movie called Black Roses. They had written some material and wanted to hire me to sing four of the songs. It was the summer of 1987. Alex was still working at Pasha, and I was working as a driver for a courier service to survive between gigs. I got paid $750 to sing the songs which helped me out quite a bit at that time. I've never seen another dime since.

We are right smack in the middle of the Mark Free golden era (if you can forgive the self appointed terminology!), as the next release from you was the utterly classic Signal record.
Let's talk about Loud & Clear - an absolute anthem packed AOR masterpiece!
I believe it was former Peter McIan (Men At Work) that had a project going he needed a singer for and that featured Erik from Signal and songwriter Mark Baker?
Signal was hard to form. It originally started as a Peter McIan project with Erik and Mark as co-writers. It evolved over a two to three year period between late 1987 and 1990. It was originally called The Fugitive Kind. The name Signal was given to us by Ron Fair who had taken over the A & R duties at E.M.I. after our original A & R rep Bruce Dickinson left the label. He got the idea when he went into his bathroom one day and saw the bottle of mouthwash on the back of his toilet. I had tried for years to get everyone in the band to agree on a name. I had come up with literally hundreds of names. In fact the name Unruly Child was one of them. They didn't like any of them, so after two weeks in the studio and still no name, we had to basically settle for the name Signal which I hated, but hoped it might help influence our rapidly sinking support at the label.

Kevin Elson produced the album - I love his stuff to death - what influence did he have over the material?
I love Kevin Elson very much and his work as well. I felt honored to work with him for his accomplishments with one of my all time favorite singers Steve Perry. But you would be surprised to learn he actually influenced the material on this album very little. Not to say he didn't have some interesting ideas in the studio, a few of which I believe we ended up using. But Erik Scott had very meticulously pre-produced much of the material before we went into the studio. Kevin brought his pristine mixing and engineering skills to the table which added a lot of sheen to the overall presentation.

The writing credits for this album are very diverse, it seemed to be the first time you wrote with people outside a band itself and generally speaking, you were not involved in much of the songwriting here.
As it was basically a vehicle for Mark Baker's writing, and he was writing such good songs, I felt like "go Mark go". Once Danny came into the band near the end of the process, he and I started writing together. If the band would've survived another few years I feel that he and I would've been able to write some pretty cool things.

This also marks (I believe) the beginning of writing relationship with Mark Baker. How did you and Mark hook up?
Mark and I had tried to write together a few times. Not always successfully. Mark had very specific ideas that were hard for him to let go of at times which kind of butted heads with mine. I always felt inferior to him and his ideas. It wasn't the best of chemistry.

Also of note is the use of songs by outside writers - did the label force/suggest you go down that route?
I believe that "My Mistake" was the only song the label may have suggested. "This Love This Time" was a song that I had done the demo version of for Peter Glenister while he was in the United States on a writing assignment for his publishing company. He and I were paired up to write together by E.M.I. one day and that is how I met him. I loved the song and brought the song to our manager at the time who also fell in love with it.

And Eric Martin guested on the marvelous My Mistake. How did that come to pass, as he wasn't that big a name himself at that time.
Yes, but I knew of him and thought very highly of his talents. I had actually met him at a Capitol records party in 1985 while I was in King Kobra. He lived in the San Francisco bay area where we recorded the Signal album. Eric was managed by Herbie Herbert who also managed Journey, hence the connection with our producer Kevin Elson. Doing the song this way having Eric answer me during the chorus was one of those great ideas I told you about that Kevin came up with. It worked well I thought. Eric is one of the worlds truly great singers and a wonderful person.

Favourite songs Marcie? Personally I'll vote for Arms Of A Stranger, Does It Feel Like Love and the monster ballad This Love, This Time!
Oh let me see…would I be too egotistical to say I love them all? The ones you mentioned would also be high on my list that are close to my heart. But I do love some of the demos that I did like "Your Wild Ways", and the Jonathan Cain and John Waite song "I Wish That I Was There".

Yes, I will get to that track shortly! The Signal album was a one-off....which was extremely disappointing. Why? Was their label pressure for a hit single, or other complications? It seemed as if the band was on it's way to great things - touring etc...
We got signed to E.M.I. by a guy named Bruce Dickinson (not of Iron Maiden). He was good friends with a lady who at the time was an old flame of Peter McIan's. She was acting as the bands manager when I came into the picture. She persuaded Bruce to leave his position at Chrysalis records and come over to E.M.I. so that he could sign us to their label. Once he came over to E.M.I. he signed us and six other bands then decided to leave E.M.I. and take a position with M.C.A.. This pissed off a lot of people in the marketing department who are responsible for support at radio and MTV when it comes time to release the album. The decision was made at the executive level to release the album, but to drop us and to not spend any money to promote the album once it was released.

A three year break followed here - during which you spent a lot of time signing demos for various writers.
First to the art of that craft - for those new to the workings of the music industry, why would someone call you to sing on their songs?
Actually I apologize but I have to correct you on your timeline. Signal was released in April of 1990. Unruly Child was released in April of 1992. I left Signal in October of 1990 and started slowly forming what became Unruly Child. It took U.C. about a year to write all the songs and come up with our deal at Interscope. I believe you are referring to the time between King Kobra and Signal. That being said, I was working as a driver for a courier service in L.A. and in the meantime I met Judithe and Robin Randall. Once they hired me to sing their demos, they started telling all their other writer friends in L.A. about me and the phone started ringing and well I needed the money really bad so I started singing demos for people. It really helped me to develop further my ability to sing in the studio and I was being paid for it. Cool huh?

Indeed! Let's continue on with the demos for a moment...If you don't mind me asking, was this a good way to earn a living? How did it compare with working for yourself in a band?
It's a great way to make a living. A lot of singers have done this in between gigs. You don't really make a killing but it beats the hell out of working at a bank.

You sang an amazing amount of songs for some amazing people - I want to talk in more detail about your relationship with the Randall's in a moment, but just briefly, could you share a line or two about your thoughts of working with some of the others you sang for. Any that stand out in your mind for one reason or another?
Yes. Jeff Silverman, David Tyson, Christopher Ward, Teddy Castellucci, and Tom Mgrdichian to name a few. You would have to throw in Jonathan Cain as well. Jeff for his unique song writing ability and speed and accuracy at the controls when recording. David and Christopher for their impeccable song writing and precise producing and engineering skills. Teddy and Tom for all of the above. And do I need to say anything about the great Jonathan Cain??

You recorded several tracks for Jeff Silverman, another writer I am big fan of. Any memories there?
Yes. And Jeff - I apologize - but he had a reputation of being a bully on singers who he had worked with in the past. I on the other hand found him delightful and very fun to work with. I welcomed each and every time my phone rang when he was on the other end of it asking me to sing another one of his songs.

Many of these great demos you have copies of and are featuring in the members area of your website - what a cool idea. Let's plug that a little now - tell us about it.
Thank you so much Andrew. Yes. My website www.marciefree.com has a section which I refer to as my "vault" where people can come and subscribe for a year and receive access to all of my demos and most everything else I have ever done that may be hard to find out there and the ability to download them. All for a nominal charge of only $36.00 per year.

You and James Christian seemed to be the go-to guys for anyone that needed their songs demoed in the best possible light. Is that something you look fondly back upon?
Oh I know for a fact there were lots of others. Stan Bush I think was one. There was this guy named Joe somebody I can't remember his last name, who sang all of the Diane Warren and Desmond Child demos. I cannot remember the names of the others. But anyway James and I would seem to meet about once a year at a Judithe and Robin Randall Christmas party and exchange glances.

Do you have any idea how many songs you sang for others over the years and of all of these, what are the stand out favourites?
I remember once I counted about 150 songs that I had sung over the length of my career. These also included the songs I sang on my albums. But that's still quite a substantial number if you compare it to the number of songs you can find out there by some of the so called, major artists.

At what stage were you introduced to Judith and Robin Randall? You bonded on a personal as well as professional level didn't you?
From my own experience with Judith, these gals were class all the way and super nice people.
Yes very much. Judithe was one of a kind. She selflessly promoted me to everyone of her contacts from the first day she met me until the last day of her life. And for not one dime of compensation did she ever ask for her tireless efforts. Her ability to write lyrics was magical. Robin is one of the sweetest most gentle, compassionate, and extremely gifted musicians I have ever known. Perhaps not so much as in playing ability, but certainly in music knowledge and in musical composition. She and Judithe will always be in my heart as two of the greatest individuals who changed my life for the better.

How many songs did you record vocals for the Randall's?
According to my records, I sang 19 songs for them. I may have missed writing down a session or two though.

Of course, some 17 tracks would appear on Long Way From Love as your first ever solo album! Let's skip time a little and run through that - Now & Then Records released the album - what got the process underway for this album?
I received a call from Mark Ashton. He promised me the world if only I would agree to release the demos I did for Robin and Judithe, and he ripped me off for practically every record sold after that. In his companies defense they did pay for our expenses to come over and do the first God's of AOR concert. Other than that, I never saw a penny from his company after the first quarter accounting which was a complete joke. To this day I have no idea how many records I sold.

Who decided on the songs that would make up the release?
Robin, Judithe and I.

Again, another classic collection of AOR material - it was later re-issued with bonus tracks and The Gods 1993 performance on it. Did you have much to do with the re-issue? This leads us into the new release you have lined-up, but I'll get to that shortly.
No. That scheme was cooked up by Mark Ashton and the guys in Italy at Frontiers Records. Ha.

I'd like just to clean up some confusion over some of your demos which have long been traded like gold - some of which are in the Vault section of your site.
There are numerous references to some tracks being a second Signal record - is this correct, or are they merely tracks you sang on that fitted the same song/style as the Signal material?
I am not quite sure to which songs you are referring to but there were two songs that were recorded in addition to the ten songs we recorded at the original recording session for Loud and Clear. Those were Runaway, and You And I Need Love. There was another song which appeared on the Signal Live video that I released a few years back called No One Gets Out Alive. But other than that there was only one other demo that I did for Signal in hopes of getting another record deal after we were dropped called What Goes Up.

Of the unreleased material there is some seriously amazing songs....just amazing....for example The Night Has A Way, Dancing On The Edge, You Do It For Love, Hopelessly Lost, Do It For Love....and stacks more!
Where did those tracks come from, as they all sound very close sonically?
The Night Has A Way was written by David Tyson and Christopher Ward producers and song writers for Alannah Miles. One of my favorites. Dancin' On The Edge was written by Jeff Silverman and Rick Springfield. Rick actually sang backgrounds with me the day I sang the lead on that track. Very cool. You Do It For Love was written by Teddy Castellucci and Tom Mgrdichian who wrote and produced all those pop delights I did later on for them as a possible solo endeavor in the summer of 1993.

I must dedicate a question to my all-time favourite unreleased demo and that is Your Wild Ways. What an amazing song - tell me about that one and the amazing vocal. Who wrote that one??!!
That track was the first song I ever sang for David Tyson and Christopher Ward. Most enjoyable. My Canadian friends.

There is also a set of 10 songs in a more pop/dance style over the AOR tracks. What was that project?
Those were the pop delights I was referring to in the answer above. Teddy Castellucci and Tom Mgrdichian. Two very extremely talented players, producers, and composers I had met while living in L.A..

Any way I can share a few of these with the site regulars, or will they appear in The Vault?
I am sorry, but I am planning on putting them in the vault and have hopes they will be hot sellers for me.

Jumping back a little - yet another major label deal came with the signing of Unruly Child. How did you come to be a part of this project?
The timing was impeccable because I was already planning on leaving Signal. It was July of 1990. After floating around for a couple of years doing demos for all the various songwriters in L.A. you start to get a reputation. Bruce Gowdy's publisher at Warner/Chappel contacted me one day and asked me if I was available to sing some of Bruce's demos. The first song I did for he and Guy Allison was a song called "Let's Talk About Love". I had first met Guy Allison back in 1980 while he was in a band called Lodgic. I had always fantasized playing with him in a band as I thought very highly of his talents. We all jelled immediately and the chemistry was magical. We ended up writing all the material for the Unruly Child album in the next 10 months to come as well as some of the songs that were not used on the first U.C. record that ended up on the Tormented C.D. It was a very cool time in my life as well as a very tormented time as I started actualizing my life long gender issues around that time as well.

Metal was huge at the time of this release and as a vocalist you toughened up your sound for the release also. This was a rocking record, but also seriously high-tech as far as layers and technical achievement!
Beau Hill was the album's producer - I'm not so much a fan of his - but this was a monster sound! Do you know how much money the label spent on this album and how long did the recording process last?
Yes the recording budget for this album was around $200K. The recording process started in the fall of 1991 and was wrapped up by December of that same year. It was scheduled for an April 1992 release.
As for me toughing up my sound - I felt for the first time that I had nothing to lose by singing the way I always wanted. I felt free for the first time to actually be me in this group. I knew that I could always do a more subdued singing style if that was what would bring me financial security but at this point in my life I was going for what was in my soul.

As we would later learn - through the release of the Unruly Child Basement Tapes - the original tracks were quite different than the finished product. Any thoughts on this?
I actually liked our demos better than the finished product that Beau presented. He homogenized our edge and took away our soul I felt.

And directly from that question - what did you think about the release of the Basement Tapes and the inclusion of the behind the scenes DVD? Quite a brilliant package for fans...
I bless anything that Bruce and Guy wish to do regarding our relationship past or present.

With Unruly Child, you had a much greater involvement in the songwriting. Did the record label believe you guys more than EMI did with Signal?
It was just a whole lot different. Signal was presented to the label as a project, and U.C. was presented as a group. Plus I had the benefit of the power of Herbie Hebert behind me when first being presented to Interscope as he ended up managing Signal in the end times.

I suppose this question is aimed more at the tracks that would become the Tormented release, but how much was your inner turmoil affecting the subject matter of your songwriting?
Tracks like Forever and Falling contain some haunting lyrics and although you did not write Still Believe, I feel the vocal on that track is about as heartfelt as it gets.
That track was actually written by Bruce and Guy after the breakup of the band but they still wanted me to sing it. I believe they actually paid me to sing it as well. I believe very deeply in always putting my heart and soul into everything I do. The anger in the songs which appeared on Tormented was actually the whole bands rage directed by the frustration of being on the losing end of the newly found "grundge era" and the wittnessing of the L.A. riots after the Rodney King verdict.

At the time of your change of lifestyle announcement came the Marcie Free release Tormented. Obviously the title was an absolute understatement, the music itself was more or less the second Unruly Child album wasn't it?
The title of the album had nothing to do with my personal issues. I had written the song Tormented with the guys back when we were Twelve Pound Sledge and it just seemed like an appropriate title at the time.

First of all - why the decision to release under the Marcie Free moniker, but more importantly, tell us about the music within and why Unruly Child wasn't to be?
I think that is pretty much obvious by now being that I am transsexual and the world was not ready for the likes of me or anyone like me. After I announced that I could no longer live as Mark my whole musical world quickly fell apart.

Ok. There were two separate masters for that release wasn't there - a European release and a superior Japanese release. How did this happen and who made the decision to go with the different master (and artwork also) for each release?
Different companies make different decisions. The Japanese company simply chose to re-master the DAT before the release. I had no problem with this decision.

xx

Marcie, it seems almost every band you were involved with has been the subject of some kind of archive release (King Kobra, Unruly Child & Solo). While some will see that as a cash-in on the part of the labels involved, I also see that as tantamount to the legacy of music you recorded over the years and the continuing demand for that great music. How do you feel about this?
I really don't know to be honest with you. But I do know that archives are always important to the hard core fans and I suppose that is what provides the value of their content.

Speaking of which, you have released a coupe of archives of your own :)
As well as the continuously updated Vault section of your website came the Signal live release. Good memories to put that together? Is that still available?
Yes it is still available and I plan on making a DVD release of the live performance available soon.

The Gods 1993 performance was I think your only ever UK appearance - it was recorded and filmed and as already discussed, has been released as a bonus audio CD already.
This time around you are releasing it yourself, both as a DVD and a CD. This time without the involvement of your old record label.
As I previously discussed they have no issues with me. They already made their money. Now I am simply making mine.

I've gone on record previously naming this live show as one of my favourite live recordings ever - it's nice and raw, features the odd mistake, but has an amazing energy. Who was in the band on that day and what are your memories of the UK appearance and that show?
The band was made up of a bunch of crazy Swedes named Snakes In Paradise. (I of course mean that very lovingly guys) They were all freaking incredible. I watched the whole DVD recently after not seeing it for many years and I couldn't believe how great the band was. They had not only learned all the songs we were to play during the show but also learned how to transpose the songs in no time once we showed up for our first rehearsal in the U.K. together. I also brought with me from the U.S. Robin Randall and Diana DeWitt without whom I could have not survived long enough to do the shows.

Oh yeah, I did forget that…fabulous band! There are not too many places you will hear a string of classics like these tracks all in one place!
Feel free to plug the DVD/CD purchase details right now also :)
Thank you Andrew. You are so kind. The DVD which is available now on my website, www.marciefree.com is one of the last live shows I have ever done. It was filmed at the Ritz Club in Manchester England in October of 1993. I remember how wonderful the fans were that night. Everyone who was standing in front of the stage that I could see were all mouthing the words right along with me as I sang that night. It was such a thrill for me. And a memory that I will never forget. It also includes a MTV interview with me which gives the viewer a lot more than just a live performance. The price is right at only $19.99 USD

How did you like touring/live performing Marcie? You performed a lot with King Kobra and Signal and even a few solo dates at the advent of signing with Now & Then Records. Did Unruly Child perform much?
Live performing with King Kobra at first was grueling for me as we traveled with 13 guys in a sleep 6 broken down old motor home. Night after night I had to take sleeping pills and lay in a corner of the bed in the back along with 6 or 7 other guys to try and get enough sleep before we arrived at the motel the next morning so that I could have the physical rest my voice needed to be able to sing the next gig. I always loved being in front of the fans but the logistics of being a live performer night after night got very tiresome for me. I need to be more grounded and have roots. Signal only did 5 maybe 6 shows in the time we were together. It was a shame as we were becoming an excellent live band near the end. Not as exciting visually as King Kobra, but much better musically I think. Unruly Child tried to do some live shows a few times but I think we only did 3 or 4. Again quite a shame as U.C. was very talented and extremely tight live.

I recall the guys speaking fondly of the band and leaving the door open for possible new music in the future.
I suppose anything's possible. That would be up to Bruce. He treated me quite harshly near the end and I would have to see an intense sincere effort on his part to make amends.

I think I have covered the music Marcie, which leaves me to talk about the person behind the music.
I noted with some concern at the time and now looking back, it still makes for a powerful sentiment, but you wrote within the thank you's for the liner notes of this album "All of whom have inspired me to persevere and survive through some of life's darkest hours".
Just how dark did things get for you Marcie?
If I could've wished myself back to heaven instead of living my life as I am I would have. I never had the courage to actually harm myself. But I thought about it many times.

As hard as it is to put into words to ask you about, I can't begin to imagine what you have been through over the last 10 years.
I read a quote attributed to you at the time of your decision to have a sex change that you literally had to decide between life and death. To chose life was to make the hardest decision imaginable.
Yes it was extremely difficult, but it has been very rewarding in ways I never thought could be.

Yet, you had the courage to make that decision....
Courage or desperation? I think I had no choice in the matter. If I would've continued my life as Mark I would have died for sure.

At what stage did you decide that your only way out was the course of action you took? Dare I ask how hard it was to tell friends and family about your choice?
I had tried to be the man once again and fell deeply in love with a gorgeous woman named Laurie Richardson. She was and is a very talented lady rock radio personality. We were married on June 24, 1989. After only 2 years of marriage we were divorced because of my gender issues and I knew then it was only a matter of time. As I have said many times previously there were very few friends who stayed by me once I came out with it. Including my former wife Laurie. My family is still with me though. Thank God.

I did hear you were married at the time. I'm sorry to hear that things ended badly.
Laurie was and will always be my last love affair with another human being in this life time. The fact that she could not stay with me was her choice and I suppose I cannot blame her for that. But to this day she still does not wish to talk with me or have anything to do with me what so ever and that makes me believe she never truly loved me and that really hurts me very much.

I know for a fact that many did not stand by you, but some others did. How important was the support of those that did stick by you and were there some that surprised and hurt you by not supporting you?
I learned during that time that there are 3 groups of people in this world. Those who like you, those who do not, and those who are indifferent towards you. As hard as it was to accept that there are some who do not like me, as I think I am lovable always, I had to gravitate myself to those who do and to not worry myself about those who do not.

In the few years following your change of life, did you feel exiled from the music business and the world in which you had been involved since being a teenager?
Yes at first. But it was best for me to bow out anyway.

You obviously got well away from all that - what have you been doing over the last few years?
I have just been living life and working as a normal person does every day. The best thing this change has given me is my peace of mind. That is the most simplest concept for most people but the most difficult to attain if you are not living inside the body of who you feel like you are inside. Once I did attain it, it immediately took away my desire to become famous and to be loved and adored by everyone like I was striving for while living in the body of Mark Free. Loving myself so that I can love others is all I care to do now.

How important has the Internet been in allowing you to finally again mix with the many fans you left behind?
Extremely. Without it I would have never even known anyone still remembered me or even cared about me. I love being in touch with you all very much. It gives me so much joy. I really am a people person in spite of my reclusive nature.

As you are well aware, the melodic rock community has a great deal of love for you as a performer and as a person, as witnessed by the amazing amount of entries in the guestbook I set up for you.
What were your first thoughts when you read those entries, which continue to be added to still!
I was shocked because I truly had no idea that there were so many out there who even knew who I was. I am deeply touched by all the outpouring of support and love the people have written about me on your message board. My appreciation and my heart goes out to everyone of them.

Without getting to personal (as that's not what I'm trying to do), are you happy Marcie? I ask as I - and I'm sure everyone else - is hoping you have found peace and comfort in your new life that the past did not fully allow?
Yes I am very happy. Life is just life now. It has it's ups and downs but I deal with it as it comes. It was always such a struggle for me before.

That leads me to what's next - the future!
Do you have any other archive releases planned and what might fans be in store for?
Yes believe it or not there are still more demos to be put up in the vault so please be looking for that.

My biggest hope is that you will consider some form of new/fresh recording. I hope (again) I am not being in sensitive hear, but how is your singing voice now? I am still amazed at the power you held over your career, and just hope it is not the last we hear from you!
I too would like to be able to run my studio and to be able to record the new songs I have written lately. My voice is still the same. I never had it altered surgically like some do. I would never do that. I don't sing as much as I used to though and I would most likely have to do some practicing to get back the stamina I had built up at the end. But I am still planning on someday recording those songs and putting them out.

To a few more light-hearted questions, is there one thing you have not been asked, but you wish you had been - this is your chance to ad-lib!
Laughing... No Andrew I think you have about covered it all very thoroughly indeed!!!

Marcie, is there anything you would like to add to fans reading?
Just please know that I feel your love, and your support, and your good will deeply, and that if I could be with you all I would. Thank you all so much for the caring and the giving. My life is much fuller as a result of our relationship together. May God continue to bless us all. Love, Marcie xoxoxoxoxxo