The New Cars
Let The Good Times Roll
By Mitch Lafon

It's been nearly two decades since The Cars cruised the music scene, but the band is back albeit with a few notable changes. Lead singer, Ric Ocasek has decided to remain in park and his shoes are filled by famed producer/ musician, Todd Rundgren. The same can be said for original drummer, David Robinson with his seat being filled by The Tubes skinman, Prairie Prince. In the intervening years bassist Benjamin Orr passed away and his duties are being filled by Utopia bassist, Kasim Sulton. Fear not though, The New Cars (as they are now known) are a pleasant surprise combining both the drive of the original with the power of the new members. To prove the doubters wrong, The New Cars will release It's Alive in the US on May 9th (UK release is May 8th). This new live album features a mix of The Cars classics with a few new songs. The band will also embark on its first proper tour in 17 years with Blondie opening up. To make sense of it all, I sat down with both original members, Elliott Easton (guitar) and Greg Hawkes (keyboards).

Mitch Lafon: How did you get Todd Rundgren to join The New Cars? He's had a very successful career as a solo artist and producer.

Greg Hawkes: “Well, Elliot and Todd have worked together in the past. Elliott had played on a record that Todd had produced. So, when his name came up Elliot got in touch with Todd.”

Elliot Easton: “The way Todd was invited to be in the band was that we were trying to get this together with Ric and David and when it became apparent that they didn't wish to tour and didn't want to be involved in the plans we were making... it became obvious to Greg and I that we would have to find a new frontman. We could have found a sound alike and made it sound like the old Cars and just played the hits and made a quick buck, but what we really wanted to do was have a band with a person in it who's creative, who could write songs, sing and we could record new albums with and go from strength to strength. I was thinking about it and who would be a great person for that and Todd's name came up and if you think about it – he's the perfect guy. He's a great singer songwriter. He's a frontman, a producer, engineer... just a really talented guy. We used to play a lot of shows with Utopia and I could see similarities in the two bands. There were touchstones stylistically that both bands shared. So, I felt he'd be a good fit and I just called Todd. I proposed it and he said he was very interested.”

ML: How do you think his voice fits The Cars sound?

GH: “It's perfect! I was a Todd fan before I ever was in The Cars. He's got this quality that's in between Ric & Ben, but he has his own personality.”

EE: “When we got together in the rehearsal room in LA, we played a few Cars songs and it just sounded great. It sounded like The Cars, but it also sounded like Todd. He's not impersonating anybody. It's a great combination and a great fit. We'll do some Cars live as well as Todd stuff, but what I'm most excited about is the new stuff we've recorded and that we have the ability to move forward as a new band and do new studio albums of new material.”

ML: Are you disappointed that Ric didn't want to do this tour?

GH: “Yeah, for awhile. Had Ric come back it would be a whole other story.”

ML: Do you know why he chose not to participate?

GH: “I can't say. He's happy producing.”

EE: “Ric is very happy producing other bands and making solo albums. One time, he said to me he really loves not being so famous anymore. I don't think he liked being besieged by people and being so recognizable that he couldn't have a normal day out. I think he's enjoying his life now and to my recollection he never really enjoyed touring. He didn't like it and The Cars didn't really tour all that much and we didn't have a reputation for being a great live band and a lot of that had to do with our frontman. There wasn't any communication with the audience... that partnership that's so necessary between the performer and audience to light that spark. We were aloof onstage and barely said 'thank you'. Anyway, he just didn't have that great of a time on tour, so he chooses not to.”

ML: Why didn't David want to get onboard?

EE: “David isn't in the music business anymore. He owns a restaurant and is happy doing what he's doing and chose not to be involved. It's about comfort level – people have to do what they're comfortable doing and if they are not comfortable being in a band and touring and performing then they shouldn't do it. It's as simple as that, but at the same time it would be unfair to expect Greg and I to fold up and not do it.”

ML: The Cars have been parked for 17 years. Why do a tour and album now (in 2006)?

GH: “I don't know. It's just all timing. Five years ago the subject just didn't come up.”

EE: “Well, we tried various times throughout the years and we just couldn't get it together. It just seems like it's a good time to do it. I read a lot of the music publications and I see how many of the young bands name check us or cite us as an influence. Bands like The Strokes, or Jet, or The Vines or Fountains Of Wayne are so clearly influenced by The Cars and I think their fans might be interested to hear where some of this stuff comes from. It's just an evolutionary chain and every generation adds a little bit to what came before.”

ML: Are you surprised at the reaction you're getting? You're playing arenas this summer and not clubs. Are you surprised The Cars made such an impact?

GH: “Yeah!”

EE: “I'm really happy about that and it's the difference between if we had called it something else... On some level, it just seems to me that with all we've given to this music and as much of our lives that we've dedicated to it... it just seems fair and correct that we should be able to use a form of the name to let people know who we are. Are we really going to start all over playing bars in our fifties? It's not realistic.”

ML: When The Cars first came out disco was ending and you had the shock rock of Kiss and Alice Cooper, but you guys did something different. Did you think people would love your music 30 years later?

GH: “Probably not. With the first record, we'd always say 'hopefully, we'll be in the position to do a second record.' That's how I feel about the new line-up.”

EE: “It all comes down to songs honestly. It always has been about songs and in Ric we had a truly gifted songwriter and the rest of it was magic. None of it is calculated or formulated and it's just what the five of us sounded like playing together and the way we interpreted Ric's songs. I'm not surprised that people still want to hear these songs. I could be cynical and say that nostalgia just cycles itself, but more than that I just think the music stands up and has dated a lot better than most of the music of our contemporaries. People still listen to The Beatles and that was forty years ago – so if it's good, it's good. “

ML: Speaking of the new band – is this a one time deal or are you looking to make this last?

GH: “It sure feels like a band and that's the thing that's got me excited. Playing with 'the band' is great.”

EE: “This is my career. This is what I do. If it was just a one tour cash in thing, I don't think I'd be interested. I'd like to be doing this for a long long time and the band we have is a band of great players. Kasim is a wonderful bass player and great singer – in fact he sings 'Drive' in the show. He has that sweet voice that Benjamin could do. Prairie Prince from The Tubes is just a powerhouse drummer. It just feels great with a really rocking rhythm section. We've got deeper grooves than we could achieve before. I love the old band and I'm proud of the work we did and I'm not trying to compare or say this is a better band, but this is a really great band that's fun to play with. If you're going to come back after so long like The Cars are – you have to start somewhere and the obvious place to start... this tour is our chance to review what we've accomplished as a band thus far and remind people who we are and what we've done and use it as a stepping off point to move forward.”

ML: After the tour, will you be making an all new record?

GH: “Absolutely.”

EE: “The plan is to do this tour and the hope is that we will be received well enough to warrant a world tour through 2006 and after that the plan would be to do a studio album of new material.”

ML: Would you try to do the nostalgia thing or conquer new ground?

GH: “So far, we've done three new studio tracks and to me it's like three different visions of the band. I think there's a lot of potential to explore.”

ML: If I may, what has Greg Hawkes been doing for the last 17 years?

GH: “I was coasting for awhile. I did some recording stuff from time to time. I did video game music. I recorded with Paul McCartney.”

ML: Can you share a story about Paul?

GH: “My dad took me to see The Beatles in 1964. That was my first concert. So, it was a thrill for me to record at his studio over in England and to see all the old stuff – The Beatles bass which still had the set list from Tokyo taped to the side of it... that was pretty cool.”

ML: Let's talk about your keyboard sound. It distinguished The Cars from everybody else back then.

GH: “It's just the way I played. I was influenced a lot by the way The Beatles used keyboards on their records. I loved the way they would throw in a piano for the bridges then it would be gone for the rest of the song. I had also just gotten into DEVO – right before recording the first Cars album.”

ML: Let's talk about the MTV era videos. The band was practically known more as being a video band rather than a live band.

GH: “It was back when MTV was still a novelty. My favorite, of course, is the 'You Might Think' video which was done on the video paint box. It was done in front of the blue screen and they fill in the background. It was really the first video that had that kind of video/cartoon-y look to it. I still love the look of it!”

EE: “After a while I guess, but our first big success was with Candy-O way before the MTV era. Our videos were cutting edge as we were with our music or technology. The 'You Might Think' video, in fact, won for Best Video at the first MTV annual video awards, but I never thought about it as 'oh, we're a video band.' But to us, we were just a band doing what comes next and once the world moved into that visual image video era it was quite important. It was something you did with your new single and as long as we had to do it – we felt we might as well have fun doing it and make it great.”

ML: You're using a live album (It's Alive) to present The New Cars...

GH: “Yeah, it's kind of funny. One of the challenges of presenting the new band is 'how well do they play The Cars songs'. So, this will be the answer to that question... I guess (laughs). Use this as a starting point and hopefully move on from there.”

EE: “One of the things we wanted to accomplish by doing this live album was... people are going to be wondering about this band, so they can buy this record and hear that it's us and the new song 'Not Tonight' sounds like a classic Cars single.”

ML: The New Cars live set has included songs by The Nazz and Todd's solo stuff...

GH: “I'm hoping we'll include more. We just haven't gotten around to learning them yet. It's perfectly natural that Todd brings in his whole... he's got a legion of fans who'll come to see him and wonder 'what's he doing with these guys?' It's a perfectly natural acknowledgment of not just Elliott and I's history, but his and Kasim's as well.”

ML: A lot of “fans” or should I say people on the internet have been complaining that this is NOT The Cars. Ric's not there. David's NOT there. Ben has passed away...

GH: “I guess the 'New' part of it is to distinguish it from when David & Ric were there. You can argue that it should be a completely separate name that had nothing to do with The Cars and I wrestled with that internally myself for awhile...”

EE: “We're careful to call it The New Cars because we don't want to mislead anybody to think that it's the old band and that they should be expecting to see Ric and David when they come to the shows. It's a new band, but the hope and wish is to use our past legacy to build upon.”

ML: Any words about Benjamin Orr?

GH: “One thing I'll say – this whole project and everybody involved has nothing but the utmost respect for Ben.”

EE: “Benjamin meant so much to the original Cars and I miss him terribly. Besides being a member of the band he was my friend. He was my brother and I loved him. I miss the guy... quite apart from what he brought to the band and what he brought to the band was considerable. Not least was his incredible singing. When you change any member of a band – it becomes a different band. So changing three members, it really is a different band. The chemistry is completely different and I think perhaps if Benjamin was still with us, he'd be involved in what we're doing.”

ML: Is it hard to hear someone else sing 'Drive'?

GH: “In a sense. In the last couple of years, I've taken to performing that song on ukulele.”

EE: “We love the song... and we think about how to present it and how to interpret it. I think we found a way to play the song that we're comfortable with. That's all I can say really.”

ML: Are you happy playing The Cars music again? Did you miss playing The Cars songs?

EE: “Oh, yes. It was. It really was. Greg and I and the others spent our youths making those songs popular and establishing that band and I'm very proud of the work we did with that band. I've always felt like we stopped before we really had to. We made the Door To Door record and it didn't do that well and we should have said 'ok, we didn't knock it out of the ball park this time, so let's just take some time off and we'll get it right.' But instead, the first record we put out that wasn't a huge success (because all the others had gone platinum) we just folded and said 'that's it.' The way the band split wasn't an argument... Ric decided to leave. It was Christmas of '87 and we had just come off tour, he and I were mixing a live radio broadcast at Electric Lady studios and he just said to me 'I'm leaving the band.' It wasn't like the band is over. It was just 'I'm leaving the band.' After that we just didn't feel like continuing. It was a difficult moment and I went through a mourning period because it had been my life for so long.”

ML: Your tour brings you to Montreal on June 23

Ok Danny. Great to finally hook up with you. You have a partnership of sorts with producer David Prater. How did you guys get hooked up for the debut album?
Michael Kaplan was our A & R guy; Don Grisham was the guy that signed this band. And Don Grisham was also the guy that … I wouldn't use the word insisted but he is really, really the guy that suggested very, very strongly that we use David Prater to produce the record.

Right, OK.
Because originally we had somebody else lined up. Or I shouldn't say that we had them lined up, we had met with a guy named Terry Thompson I believe.

Oh, Terry Thomas?
Thomas rather who had done Bad Company, right?

And went on to do Giant.
Terry Thomas was the guy, the first guy that we were interested in. Terry Thomas came to New York, took a meeting with us and came to a rehearsal, the studio and came and listened to our stuff, listened to us play and said, “Yeah, I'm interested.” The scheduling just wasn't right. He had just agreed to do a project that was going to take him like, 3, 4 or maybe even 6 months perhaps. He said well look, if you guys can wait, or if you're interested, I'm interested and if we can schedule this 6 months down the road that would be wonderful. Don Grisham said we can't afford to wait 6 months. The time is now and we sort of need to continue with the momentum that we have.

Yep. Yep.
And Prater had done really good sounding demos for us so Don basically stepped in and said look, this is pointless. I'm looking for somebody else. The guy he used was the guy he used for the demo. He did a wonderful job and that was how that whole thing happened.

Right. That's interesting you should say because Terry Thomas has got a similar production style I would have thought.
Yeah, well I was, at the time, you know what? I couldn't tell you a song or even an album title right now but at the time I was really sort of, very into that whole Bad Company sound. Because they were doing a more contemporary, again, like melodic rock / light metal thing.

Yeah, exactly.
But he wasn't available so we got David Prater.

He sounds like a character to work with.
Oh he…have you spoken to this guy?

A little yes…
First, he's incredibly bright and exceptionally, really exceptionally articulate but he's completely out of his mind. And he always has been and he probably always will be.

That's fine. Creative genius
Oh no, he's really…he can be very, very charming, very, very lovely…he's just manic.
He's one of these guys that doesn't do anything half way. And he gets really, really excited and he's manic. But exceptionally capable and an exceptional drummer. Despite the fact he fancies himself as a producer and he has in fact become that…the thing that he really does better than anything else as far as I'm concerned is play the drums. He's an amazing drummer. I'm not at all, even remotely familiar, I don't even know that I ever even heard that Night Ranger record that he did.

Ah, it's very good.
Is it really?

I like it. It's not a standard Night Ranger album by any stretch but it's a very good melodic rock album and has a contemporary feel and I like it a lot.
Yeah, yeah, I'll have to listen to it now then. I'll have to give it a listen.

I'm also a fan of David's work with Dream Theater. That's my favorite album of theirs as well.
I can say with a fair amount of certainty that he is…I mean he's proud of all of the things he's done but I think that he is particularly proud of that first Dream Theater record.

Yeah, it's an amazing record.
Yeah, it's an amazing record; I think he really feels as though that was really his baby. It was something that he took from sort of like an infancy, I mean I don't know that much about where that band came from, I'm familiar with where they've ended up, but not really where they came from, and he was exceptionally proud of that record. And from what I've heard, and from the things that I've read, he has every reason to feel that way.

I think it's still the band's best album.
Oh it is, absolutely. And it is pretty extraordinary. It's pretty extraordinary, he did an amazing job with them. Another band that he'll tell you effectively, they turned their back on him after they made that record. I guess they did one other record with them, didn't they? Or did he produce a live record?

He did one more studio record with them I think.
One of those bands that never really…because he's difficult to work with. I'm one of the few people that have gone back for seconds.
Did you read his…obviously you read it. [David's passionate post regarding the new DFP record]

Yeah I did, I posted it on the site.
Because you posted it on the site. I got into real deep trouble with Yul Vasquez
because of that.

Really!?
Oh my, because Yul thought that I had something to do with it.

Right, OK.
And Yul and David always had a contentious relationship. They were never really the best of friends and David never really thought that Yul was a particularly good guitar player. So there was a lot of head butting and a lot of ego involved in their relationship.
David Prater, again I say this lovingly, anything I say about David Prater I say lovingly.

I can understand that.
Because he is in fact one of my closest friends, but he's got an ego the size of the state of Texas. Despite the fact he said in a letter that you posted that it had nothing to do with ego, you know. Really, on some level, everything that David does has something to do with his ego. But yeah, Yul called me like 2 days later. Because Yul's an actor. I don't know if you're aware of the fact that Yul has become a reasonably successful actor.

OK. I think I heard something…
I mean, he was just in War of the Worlds. He was just in the new Steven Speilberg…

I haven't seen that.
I haven't seen it either but…, and he doesn't have a huge part in it but he's in like the first 20 minutes of it perhaps. But he was in a … he did, I guess last summer there was a … or 2 summers ago perhaps there was a film called Bad Boys 2 with Will Smith and there's another actor, I forgot his name, a comedic actor, but Yul had a good size role in that. He was in Traffic. He was the assassin in Traffic. I don't know if you saw Traffic.

I haven't seen Traffic either, no.
Well alright, if you see Traffic, he's the assassin, in Traffic. And he's done a lot of television here. So anyway, he has a publicist that sort of does a Google search on him every day just to see what's new out there and what came up. So the publicist read that and said, look, you should probably read this and he called me and said, look, because despite what David Prater may think, and David Prater…it's become public knowledge at this point he did in fact play drums on the record. And he did in fact have to replace some bass parts because, you know, once you re-cut the drums, I mean the bass player, our bass player at the time, a guy named David Weeks, once you cut drums, you cut drums with the bass. I mean rather, you cut bass with the drums.

Yeah, gotcha.
And then once we replaced all the drumming, it really became essential to replace some of the bass parts as well. And because David Weeks, who again was the bass player at the time had already left Nashville and I believe he had gone back to Los Angeles which was where he was living at the time. It was a lot more cost effective and also timely, it saved us…to just have David play some bass. But I don't ever remember. And I can't argue with David because I wasn't there in the studio, you know, with them 16-20 hours a day. I was there but I don't ever remember David having played any guitar.

Yeah, OK.
And that is my story and what you posted on your page is his story.

Yes.
Which is every bit as valid as mine because he'll tell you, well Danny you weren't there and you don't know. And I'd have to say, OK well maybe you're right because I wasn't there and maybe I don't know. Maybe I really don't. So, but yeah, Yul called me, particularly the line I think David said something about the band was there just for live performances, photos and in capital letters with exclamation points, great hair!

Way to start an argument!
At the end of the day, Yul just doesn't really care because it's 16 years after the fact and he's moved on. I will only make one other little point about that. I did in fact ask Yul to play on this record and Yul said yes. And the reason that he didn't play on the record, it had nothing to do with whether I wanted him to or didn't want him to or whether or not he was interested or not interested, it all really boiled down to scheduling.
You know, we made the record in Texas and here in Massachusetts, Yul is a New Yorker and he has one of those careers where you kind of have to be available, so it was difficult to schedule anything with him. And in the end it just became more realistic for us to use somebody else. But it had nothing to do with whether or not he was interested in participating in the whole thing, because he was in fact. So that's my story now Andrew.

I am trying to make one point really, the point being that the first Diving for Pearls record was…3 points perhaps…was 16 year ago, secondly that at the time I think, which was a huge amount of money at the time was $180,000 to make that record which was kind of standard. That's kind of what they would spend to make a record for a new act back then, $150,000 - $200,000.
And between, from the time that we started doing the demos until the time that we finished doing the new record, really it was about a year long process. And this new record we made for a think $17,000 or $18,000 (laughs), in five weeks time. I listened to some people's criticism, and look, everybody's entitled to their opinion, I didn't expect, nor do I expect every body to like it. But I thought that was an unfair reason for criticizing it. You know, the fact that it didn't sound anything like the first record. It's hard. It's hard to make a record that sounds like $200,000, I mean sonically. I'm only talking about fidelity wise, you know what I mean?

I do.
Sonically that can compete with that, it's just really. Despite the fact that digital recording equipment has completely changed the way that people make records and the way that records sound. It really is…, it's a hard act to follow sometimes when you're working on a really limited budget.

And you had the disadvantage over a lot of other bands, I mean that was, that first album was really held in very high esteem.
Yeah. I don't think anybody expected…, I really truthfully didn't expect the record to have survived for as long as it has, and for people to have thought as highly about it as they actually… I mean I'm the same way. I would never try to convince you I don't feel the same way. I mean I still like the first two U2 records better than anything that they've done subsequently. I mean sonically just in terms of the songs, I mean, you know, and I could name half a dozen other bands that I feel the same way about. But you know… It's tough sometimes. It's really, really tough to sustain a particular focus for anything more than just a couple records. Trust me.
Had Diving for Pearls made a second record in like 1991, it would have sounded an awful lot like the first record. And I've even mentioned to one or two people that I meet that Diving for Pearls did in fact get picked up by Epic. I mean we started making a second record. And we didn't do a lot of work on it but I think we had actually begun demoing like a half a dozen songs with David Prater. He was working at a studio in New York state called Bear Tracks at the time. He was getting ready to do the Firehouse record perhaps. But unfortunately it didn't work out. But a second Diving for Pearls record in 1990 or '91 would have sounded virtually identical to the first record.

I think you did a remarkably good job of … probably half the Texas album sounds, you know, very close to the original. I think you did a remarkable job there.
Well you can thank David Prater for that when you speak to him then. Because, that was really his sort of thing, I mean I left a lot of that…, I shouldn't say all of it, but I left a lot of that to him, I mean, the reason that I asked him to make the record again after…although I asked him probably about 5 years ago if he was interested in doing something like this with me. Because I knew he could deliver and I know Magnus and I knew what Magnus was looking for and I thought the person that can give Magnus that kind of record is David Prater. So yeah, I mean, you know, I think so too. I don't absolutely adore the record from start to finish Andrew. I'd be lying through my teeth if I told you that I did. I mean I feel very strongly about maybe 4or 5 of the songs; there's probably 1 or 2 perhaps or even 3 that I really don't like at all and then the rest of it…

That's probably exactly how I feel to be honest.
Yeah, there's probably 3 good songs. Three songs on that record that I just wish that we'd scratched and found something else. But again, time permitting and with the budget you kind of have to push forward a little bit.

Yeah the record's been on the table for a long while hasn't it?
It has been on the table for a long while, yeah. We actually did, we nixed a couple of things. I think originally we started with probably 14 or 15 songs and then had to make some hard decisions about 4 of them I think and they didn't make it. And a lot of that had to do with the fact that David was doing the drums while… I wasn't in Texas when he was actually doing drums. Sometimes you get there and you just think, OK, I had a vision for it and my vision doesn't really match your vision for it so…, and we don't have the time nor do we have the budget to go back and redo the drums so maybe we should just move on and concentrate…you know what I mean.

Basically you're saying this is a pretty hard record to get done.
Yeah, it was hard, only because of time and distance. If we'd had the luxury again of a big budget we could have gone away, you know, for 3 months, which is how much time we spent in Nashville making the first Diving for Pearls record. You know, you live with it every day. It's easy to change something if you feel inspired and I know David has talked about, there was a song on the first record called 'You're All I Know'.

Yeah, great song.
You know and that song went, arrangement wise, probably changed 3 or 4 times before we settled on what we actually recorded. And we probably would have done a lot more of that this time around, but again, it's difficult to do when one person's living in Texas and the other person lives in Massachusetts. But in the end, I think we got some things that were really good and unfortunately I think we got some things that weren't particularly brilliant but we had to live with them anyway.

OK, I must tell you that I absolutely adore 'The Colours Show'.
One of the songs I'm very, very happy with. Both you and I agree there.

Another one was 'The Truth Is'.
'Truth Is'. Always felt very, very good about that song and was very, very pleased. Very happy with the way that it turned out so we agree there.

And 'Heaven Only Knows' is probably my third favorite.
'Heaven Only Knows' I love! I love! I was really, really happy with that vocal. There's a couple other things about it that I was really happy with the way that…it was David Prater's idea… he modulated it at the end and I'm really, really happy with 'Heaven Only Knows'.

Yeah, cool. And 'If I Only Knew' was another favorite too.
'If I Only Knew', a song that I sadly did not write. Some good friends of mine wrote it and I was in a very short-lived band in New York for a while with these friends of mine. And on a tape of some ideas that I thought we might, or some songs that I thought we might consider for the record, I included that. And David fell in love with it so you can thank David Prater for that, because he insisted that we do that song. And so, I agree with you there. That is one of the songs that I thought came out surprisingly well.

Why?
Because I didn't really have any expectations particularly for that song. And because David felt strongly about it, I basically said to him, well look, I'm easy. If you want to do it, and you feel strongly about it, then let's do it. And I was surprised by how well it came out. So we agree so far (laughs)!

Now look, it's a good all-round record. I have some argument obviously that it should have been a Danny Malone record, or might have.
Not that it should have been but perhaps it might have been better received because it wasn't being compared to something else. I think that was my argument. It could be called whatever you like but I think it might have been better received had it been called…
You know, Andrew, I wouldn't argue with you there. I really wouldn't argue with you. The reason why I think at the end of the day it became a Diving for Pearls record was because… I could probably give you 2 reasons why. One, it was because, I mean, I own that name. I came up with that name a long time ago and I personally own it though. I mean, it's a name that I've always liked and I've always felt strongly about so I thought…and I thought in a lot of ways, and I think I may have said this in the letter that I was going to post, at the end of the day, for me, Diving for Pearls was always Jack Moran and I. The keyboard player and I. And despite the fact Jack only got song writing credit on maybe 3 or 4 of these songs, I've forgotten exactly, he really was…because he always has been… Jack and I… Despite the fact that Jack lives in southern California right now, I mean he's my daughter's godfather and I'm his son's godfather. I mean, he and I have always maintained this relationship where we always talk about songs and regardless of where he is, or where he was at the time, because he was living in Paris for a while, I mean, I always sent him stuff and he always commented, and he always had criticisms, constructive most of the time, so I just felt he was involved.

Yeah.
I felt like he was involved. And David Prater was almost like the 5th member of Diving for Pearls really, so I thought, well we've got really... you know there are a number of…again, as I mentioned earlier in my conversation with you, is that Yul was originally interested in working on the record as well. But also, I have no reason not to be candid with you, Atenzia wanted a Diving for Pearls record.

Of course, it's easy to market.
Yeah. Because people may not know who Danny Malone is, but they may in fact know who Diving for Pearls is. Because I was the lead singer in Diving for Pearls, I mean I think they just thought… and I can't honestly say that I resisted all that much.

Look, I don't think you should have. I mean, you've got every right to release it as you have.
The reception might have been a little bit warmer.

Yeah, exactly, just because of the unfortunate 16-year legacy of that great album!
I know (laughs).

It's not very often you'd call that unfortunate (laughs).
No I don't (laughing), I really don't. It makes me very happy. I find myself sometimes thinking about it. It certainly has been a wonderful thing. I'm very proud of that record. I'm very, very proud of that record and I just have to add, despite what David said, it really was a collaborative effort. I mean, it really was. Could he have been the 5th member of the band? Is George Martin the 5th Beatle?

Sure.
I mean, Jimmy Miller. I was talking to someone about Jimmy Miller the other day and, I mean, all those Rolling Stones… could Jimmy Miller have been… would the Rolling Stones have been the same without Jimmy Miller? Would Traffic had been the same without Jimmy Miller? So he was a big, big part the sound. And a big, big part of the success of that record as well.

Yeah, absolutely!
I mean the success 16 years on. Certainly not the financial success of it, because it wasn't financially… But yeah, I mean, it's not a bad thing. I'm glad that the record is still thought of highly. It makes me happy.

There's a nice little live performance in 1990 that gets traded around the circuit too.
Yeah, I love to… David and I have talked about that because he has that whole show.

Yeah, I've got a CD-R of it or something that's from…
Oh you do? Yeah, see, good, good. I would love for anybody… I'd love to find a way to make that available to just about anybody that wanted it. In a lot of ways I like it sometimes more than I like the record itself.

I don't think my CD-R is pristine quality but it's pretty good.
I'll have to get you one then Andrew.

I'd love to. I mean if you'd like to throw it up on the site as a download we can always do that.
Yeah we could do that. Even like one or two songs would be a good idea. You know what, I'm going to talk to David about that and see if we can't do that. That would be a great thing.

Yeah, just celebrate the band a little bit more.
Absolutely, I would love to do that. I'd have to see if I could coerce him to do it, but I don't see any reason why he wouldn't want to do it.

Hopefully I better get on the phone with him as well and do an interview, and I'd love to talk about his other projects as well.
Oh yeah, you should, very definitely. He's very animated.

Sounds like it. Somebody else told me the same thing.
Oh yeah, yeah. Anybody that's ever worked with him or anybody that's ever known him, he's a larger than life character.

Well I like that. They're a good, fun interview.
Yeah, yeah, he's brilliant, I'm sure. He's just, you know, he's fearless. He'll say anything. Wonderful, I highly recommend you do an interview with him.

What's next for you Danny? Musically, I mean, is anything planned?
No, you know, I mean all I really wanted to do…because the guys… believe it or not the guys who made this record with me are really, really talented. And I'd hoped, and I wouldn't rule it out entirely at this point. My hope was that we'd, that the record would get enough interest that we could go to Europe and play some dates. And perhaps even Japan.

We will definitely keep in contact…
Oh, yeah, I'd love to do that. I'm still looking for an opportunity to do that sometime between now and the end of the year as well. I've talked to some friends from Belgium and obviously Magnus is working on a few things there. But nothing has materialized yet. But all the guys that made the record would love to do it. Depending upon, again scheduling wise and everything else, I could probably even twist Yul's arm and get Yul to come out.

Well OK. That sounds pretty awesome!
Outside of that, and I'd like to do another one. I few could make enough noise with this one and the people at Atenzia, although I don't know how they're fixed financially or anything like that. If they were interested in doing another one or if there was another label that thought perhaps that it made sense to want to do another Diving for Pearls record, I'd do another one. I would actually like to do that.

I hope so. I really hope you do.
Yeah, I hope so too. I got busy there for a while. I owned a music store, and I got married and had some children. Things have sort of normalized a little bit and I find myself with a little bit more time now that I didn't have when my children were very, very young. And I'm sort of interested in doing it, yeah. Before, as I said to a friend of mine the other day, before it becomes ridiculous and pathetic (laughs). You know what I mean? For me to even think about going out on stage and supporting something like this. I'd like to do it.

I think it should be done.
Thank you!

Definitely!
Thanks, I appreciate it.

Bruce Turgon is yet another exceptional musician that has spent a lengthy career making other people look good. Finally he gets the chance to shine under his own name, with his debut solo album for Frontiers Records.

Great to talk to you Bruce, time to talk the fabulous Outside Looking In album.
Nice to hear from you.

First of all - congrats on a great album that seems to have captured the imagination of a lot of fans.
Thank you - I'm very gratified to see all the positive response it's gotten so far.

To take things back to the start – for those that don't know – where did you career begin? The first time I remember hearing of you was on Lou Gramm's Ready Or Not solo debut, but the partnership went back further than that, didn't it?
In the early 70's, I developed a musical association and friendship with Lou Gramm, who lived very close to me in upstate NY. With our band Black Sheep, we worked our way up through the club circuit to eventually become the first American band signed to Chrysalis Records, and then recorded 2 albums for Capitol Records.
It was during this period that we truly started to develop our songwriting skills. By '76, Black Sheep was over, Lou had moved to NYC to work on what would become Foreigner, and I had an offer to work in LA.
I continued writing, recording and touring with various artists (Warrior/Billy Thorpe/Nick Gilder, etc,) and my own bands throughout the early 80's. In late '85, Lou contacted me about writing with him for his first solo effort. Our writing partnership was strong - we worked throughout the next year. In early '87, he released “Ready Or Not” which yielded the hit single, “Midnight Blue”

Looking back through the credits on that album - you were responsible for a great majority of the music and co-wrote many of the songs. I must admit I did not take that in fully at the time. You must have been very proud of the major success that album had.
It was great on many levels. After being apart from Lou and having worked with so many other musicians that I had little or no connection with, I really appreciated the opportunity to collaborate with my friend again. From the beginning of the songwriting process there was a great creative momentum, which continued throughout the recording phase.
Pat Moran was an integral part of that process in that he encouraged individual creativity and spontaneity, while keeping us focused throughout. Besides my own album, working on "Ready Or Not" was probably my most satisfying recording experience and yes, I was proud of the success we had

Long Hard Look was quite different though. Whereas Ready Or Not was a collaborative effort and a more cohesive record, Lou used a host of different players and different writers for Long Hard Look and although I love the album, it sounded like it was recorded - in parts. Any thoughts on your involvement in that record now, looking back?
Well, it was recorded in parts - in fact there are two different versions. We recorded one with Eric Thorngren, and while there were some good moments, it was not right, so Peter Wolf stepped in and completed the album that was released. Peter took the elements from the original recordings that he liked (which were precious few) and built on it with, as you say, a host of different players and writers, and it was during this time that I decided to tour with Steve Stevens.
I had nothing to do with this version of the record until near the end of the recordings, but just prior to leaving for NYC to begin Atomic Playboys rehearsals, Lou asked me to come to LA and work on it. For a couple of days I played bass and rhythm guitars and sang backing vocals with Lou. Like you, I feel the album is good, but fragmented - it seems to live somewhere between a pop and a hard rock record.

The move to a band name - Shadow King and a stable line up - what was the thinking behind that? It was more or less, the same set up as Ready Or Not, yet with Vivian Campbell added and a tougher sound. You and Lou co-wrote the record together, just as you had at the start. What prompted Lou to get back to basics with you?
We did eventually tour after Long Hard Look and it brought us back together again. After the tour, we started to write and had laid the groundwork for what was meant to be his next solo album. However, Lou's management and record label felt it would be stronger if there was a band identity. I was not in favor of it, but nevertheless, we went about the process of auditioning musicians and settled on Vivian Campbell and Kevin Valentine- both great players.

I could perhaps see yourself happy to be in a band situation as previously all your efforts musically were credited to Lou Gramm solely, but now perhaps you could share the limelight. Is that what happened?
Not really. As I mentioned, a band wasn't my personal druthers. If it had developed organically, it might have made more sense to me, but Shadow King was a completely manufactured situation. I have great respect for Lou and his accomplishments and I really didn't feel that whatever success we had achieved to that point, needed to be watered down with a new band identity to promote - it was like starting over to me. However, because I had both a friendship and a business obligation to Lou, I tried to find a middle ground between our original vision and what was now expected, but with varying degrees of success.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but the Shadow King record is to this today routinely debated on my message board – with some still not 'getting' that album, but many others (myself included) regard it as a classic and somewhat of a highly underrated and under sold record!
Thank you - regardless of sales, I always felt it was an album that distanced us from the pack in those days and would stand the test of time. I do know that there is a strong following from the people that are aware of it, but I didn't realize they were still debating the merits of it…

After listening to Outside Looking In, I instantly knew where the talent behind Shadow King came from. Were you disappointed that album did not take off as it should have? And do you have any idea why it did not? Did the label drop the ball, or what?
Thank you again and I appreciate that you recognize my contribution, but at its core, the heart and soul of the record is a collaboration between Lou and myself, very similar to "Ready Or Not".
In fact, a harder, more intense version of that record is what I had originally intended to accomplish prior to the whole band thing. Musically, because of my songwriting contributions and the instruments I played, it's weighted in my direction, but all the players contributed excellent, vital performances. However, early on, it was determined by Lou and producer Keith Olsen, that I should establish the rhythm section and song identities by playing the core instruments as I had done on the demos.
This created distrust and animosity, which we never really overcame. After everyone's eventual participation, the fact that a good album emerged was not enough to hold us together. The whole Shadow King experience was frustrating for all the musicians involved in that everyone was compromised in the process and there was no cohesive thread to make it feel or act like a band.
Lack of sales was just another step down that road, but not totally unexpected by me because despite the marquee value of the players, it was a new entity that would need to be heavily promoted and we released that album just as grunge was happening. The album was lumped in with all the other metal bands, which I never considered it to be.
Of course, I would have liked the album to sell, but it wasn't really a surprise when it didn't.

You followed Lou back to Foreigner, for arguably one of the band's finest and most mature records in Mr. Moonlight. Again, a classic record that continues to find fans that missed it back in the day, but another record that was criminally under-promoted and under sold. What went wrong in this particular case?
Again, I agree with you - it is a very musical, mature record. I think the fact that it was somewhat different from previous albums, plus coming from a new band lineup, it was probably hard to embrace by some of the fan base. Also, Mick and Lou had made a label and management change, so the traditional promo/marketing machine was not in place and although we worked very hard at promoting and toured extensively in support of "Moonlight", it didn't translate to great sales

You continued to tour with Foreigner and Lou for sometime - up until not too long ago. In fact, I saw you guys live in Toronto in 1993 - fabulous show. Why did things come to an end and what happened with your relationship with Lou?
There was no definitive end to my participation in Foreigner - it just faded away. We ended the 2002 tour and all was well, but when Mick and Lou went to Europe for the "Night Of The Proms" shows, old rivalries flared and they once again reached an impasse in their relationship.
Consequently, there was no Foreigner tour or recording planned for the next year. Lou wanted to tour solo, and I put together a show that focused on his (and to a certain extent, our) career highlights. It was a very long, difficult tour and a hard time for Lou personally. By the end of it, we were both exhausted and it was around this time that I was approached by Frontiers about doing a solo record. I wanted to take a break from touring and decided that I would finally commit to doing my own album. Lou put a band together to continue doing shows and recording, so really, we have just gone about our own projects for the time being. He is meant to be releasing a Christian album soon and I look forward to hearing it.

Moving on to the fabulous Outside Looking In - was there a portion of the songs featured on this album that were intended for a second Shadow King album?
They sound sonically compatible - or...were some of the songs originally demoed for a solo project? How many were written for this project after being signed by Frontiers?
Songs written for future Shadow King - none. The initial ideas for "Walk Thru Fire" and "Living A Lie" were developed in the early 90's in anticipation of a solo album that I obviously never recorded. The bonus track for the Japanese release, "Walk The Walk", was an idea I started with Lou around '91-'92 for what was to be his next solo album, before we went to Foreigner. However, the version on "Outside Looking In" is considerably different. The core ideas for "Heart So Strong" and "These Tears Must Fall" were written in the mid to late 90's, but have also been majorly revamped for this album. Everything else is new material.

Once again we find you playing a majority of the instruments - how challenging is it to play/record and then mix yourself into the perfect result?
For this record it was absolutely necessary for me to play most of the instruments and sing - it is, after all, a true solo album… I don't know if it's a blessing or a curse, but at a songs inception, I generally have a picture in my mind's eye of what it should be like and spend all my time in pursuit of that, so it's better for me to just play the instruments rather than try and communicate what I want. Mixing, however, is another thing completely and while I do have a definitive opinion, I also realize that I cannot be entirely objective with such a wealth of material. Dennis Ward did a great job mixing and mastering and it was no small feat - there was an enormous amount of data for him to handle, but we worked well together and got great results.

Some fantastic guests on the album too – first of all, Denny Carmassi on drums – how did you know Denny (one of the great rock n roll drummers!)
About 10 years ago, I tried to recruit Denny for Foreigner, but he was busy with Whitesnake. However, from those initial conversations, we remained friends and eventually I was able to get him to tour with Foreigner in 2002. When I decided to do this album, he was my first call and he absolutely played a vital role in the power and feel of this record. I'm very grateful for his contribution and friendship and yes, he is one of rock's great drummers.

And solo guitar parts from the likes of Rocket Richotte and Ronnie Montrose!
Both are good friends and amazing guitarists as well as Scott McKinstry, who while he is not as well known, did some really great work as well.

And lastly - backing vocals from a good friend of mine - Ricky Phillips. A fellow LA bud?
Yes, and a very good friend that I finally had the opportunity and pleasure to collaborate with. We had a lot of fun working at Ricky's studio, both in the recording, but also the post work hang… We actually did two backing vocal sessions - one with Ricky alone, the other with Rick and Tom Gimbel, which was also very cool and great fun…

Lou Gramm provides backing vocals. Were those vocals from some of the original sessions or did Lou come in to help out an old friend?
Lou sings on songs we wrote together. They were recorded during those writing sessions and worked great as I continued to develop this album.

After getting to know this album, it's easy to see what Bruce Turgon's sound is - it is very distinct. Previously I wouldn't have been able to definitively state that. Is it nice to finally get a solo release out there?
At this point in my career, the recognition factor was one of the major reasons for doing a solo album. My approach is a little off the beaten path and I don't expect everyone to get it - but I appreciate that some do. Collaborations can be great, but it generally means compromise to some degree, at least for me. There's been much speculation over the years as to what my contributions have been to all these high profile projects, so for anyone who has followed my career and wondered, I think "Outside Looking In" is revealing.

Very revealing\ Bruce! Favourite songs? I love These Tears Must Fall, Living A Lie, Any Other Time...Walk Thru Fire also...
Well, it is a solo album in which I wrote or co-wrote all of the songs, so choosing favorites is difficult as they're meaningful in one way or another. However if I had to pick one, "On A Wing And A Prayer" encompasses most of the elements that are important to me for this kind of record.

What next then Bruce? Will we see another solo album in 2006/2007?
I'm not sure yet. Right now, all my attention is on this album, although I am continuing to write. Much really depends on the outcome of "Outside Looking In". However, I do also have an opportunity to score a film later next year as well as developing a very artistic project that I'm not at liberty to elaborate on at the moment. I've been approached to produce some younger bands and am considering it, depending on how their songs develop. We'll see…

Is there anything else you are working on? Do you do a lot of session work in LA?
I'm not really a studio gun for hire. Although I have done session work in years past, I really tend to get involved more in projects that I can sink my teeth into on a few different levels. I've done quite a bit of TV/film work over the last few years and will be doing more as I really enjoy it.

Anything else you would like to add Bruce?
Just that I would like to thank you, Andrew, and everyone who has followed my career and supported my work all these years. “Outside Looking In” is the next step down this road - I hope you enjoy it!

Many thanks for talking today and I look forward to more music to follow soon I hope!
Thanks again Andrew, and Merry Christmas!

Something a little different today... When a mate sends you a Steve Perry interview - you print it! Canadian BW&BK journo Mitch Lafon talked to the great vocalist Steve Perry late last week and has granted me permission to print the interview here in full.
Former Journey vocalist and general melodic rock legend Steve Perry talks about the new Journey live DVD and much more...

At one time, Steve Perry was THE voice of melodic rock. Both fans and radio-programmers alike couldn't wait to hear his latest (be it with Journey or solo) multi-million selling song of a generation, but for almost a decade his voice has been silenced due mainly to a seemingly self-imposed exile from the music business. By the fall of 2005, he was back (sort of) doing a limited amount of print only press to help promote the Journey: Live in Houston 1981 Escape Tour DVD that he produced. In this rare and candid interview, he looks back at what was and what may be.

Steve Perry: “Talk to me – where are you?”

Mitch Lafon: In Montreal...

SP: “It's so beautiful up in Montreal. I was on tour one time up in Canada with a band called The Privilege when I was a teenager. They hired me as a singer and I was one of their frontmen and we ended up in Quebec and Montreal. In Quebec we stayed at the Chateau Frontenac and my big thrill was having onion soup at the Chateau Frontenac.”

ML: Maybe, you'll come back up here on vacation or for a show?

SP: “Yeah, but how about in the spring? Is that ok?”

ML: Let's talk about the DVD – Live in Houston 81. Why did you accept to get involved with the project? Wouldn't it be too much of a heartache?

SP: “The answer is yes – it was too much of a heartache to look back. When I first heard the tapes and I remember that show, it was too painful to think what it once was, but the only thing I could not do was... I'm a fighter for the music. I'm a fighter for the songs and a fighter for the performances and I refuse to let them be evaporated into time. If I do anything, I'm going to fight for those performances to be heard and the band is out doing what they're doing and I was approached by SONY to do it, so I said absolutely. Since, I produced the first compilation DVD. So, I got Allen Sides and we did the 5.1 and stereo mixes together then I did the editing. The interviews and all that was painful too. It was tough.”

ML: Will you be doing more DVDs like this?

SP: “I don't know if my heart can handle it.”

ML: You've been away from the band for quite awhile...

SP: “Since May '98”

ML: And you've also been away from the public for quite awhile...

SP: “Except for the World Series with the White Sox.”

ML: How was that?

SP: “That was excellent. It was so exciting. I just couldn't believe it and they adopted the 'Don't Stop Believin'' song back in July as their mascot and when they won and were going to the World Series; their communications director wanted to try and get me to game one. I got a phone call and went out there and was there for game one and two and was getting ready to leave and they said you can't go. You got to go to Houston and I had to think about that because they had booked me for all these interviews to promote this DVD. It felt good to be wanted, so next thing I knew – I'm flying to Houston for game 3 (which lasted 5 hours and 45 minutes) and I was on another planet when we won that one and game four they won and swept'em. It was unbelievable. They swept the Astros.”

ML: Good city to be in to be promoting a Houston 1981 DVD...

SP: “I didn't start the promotion there. I actually came back to LA and started doing phone calls. It was actually very funny.”

ML: You've been out of the limelight since '98. You did the Journey Behind The Music, but you really haven't put out any music. What's going on? Are the interviews and new DVD... are you coming back? Is Steve Perry going to be singing for us soon?

SP: “You know I love singing again. I've been pulling out of it and I've been missing in action for sure... I put a lot of effort in trying to put Journey back together for the Trial By Fire era and I worked hard with those guys so that we would keep our original integrity and write some good music and we did. Then I had that hip problem and it crashed on me. I had to go have surgery. There were some mistakes made and they checked out a few singers and they got tired of sitting around and one thing lead to another and we split again...”        

ML: For the final time?

SP: “Well, I think so. Only because I said to them in January of '98 when I got this phone message that said 'go out and do whatever you want to do, but do not call it Journey.' That fractures the stone to me; that breaks it. I was given an ultimatum and I don't respond well to ultimatums.”

ML: Not that anybody should. Now, the hip thing was a degenerative problem. Is it getting better?

SP: “It's completely replaced. It's very good. It's beyond better.”

ML: So, you're 100% physically?

SP: “Well, I have some other physical issues. I'm not a teenager anymore.”

ML: Do you see yourself going back into the studio?

SP: “I've been thinking about the good side about this whole split up with the band that happened in May of '98; which is that I could not be kept under contract while they replaced me with a sound-alike or whatever he was... fish or cut bait. The bottom line is that the label had to let me go. So, I haven't had a record deal since May '98 and you've got to know that I signed my record deal with Columbia in '78. That was 20 years of being signed to a label. It's been a real pleasure not having contracts lurking over me... obligations and extensions until you deliver. Oh, please! It's been nice to fall back into your own life and so that's what's happened. I'm no longer in the band since May '98 and I had the surgery seven or eight months after 'that' January phone call... so, you know, I'm just living my life and I have been entertaining the idea of just getting into the studio, but it's a tough thing.”


ML: Have you been writing at all?

SP: “I've got all kinds of stuff written. Writing isn't a problem, it's...”

ML: It's not stage fright at this point in your career?

SP: “ No, it's just what do I want to do? I love R&B. I love rock. I love techno. I love remixes. I love acoustic. I love everything. When I come up to LA, I'll spend two days watching someone record 172 pieces of score. I sat back a year or so ago and watched Alan Silvestri conduct a 175 piece orchestra for Van Helsing (movie). So, when I watch that kind of arranging... I love the power of that. So, I just don't know what to do, but I'll probably jump in the studio with a four-piece section and just start having some fun and maybe do some covers just to get my feet wet. I sat in the studio for six weeks with this DVD mixing it in stereo then tore in down and mixed in 5.1... that was one of the best pleasures I've had other than the emotional aspect of being dragged through the plethora of emotions from 'what happened' to 'we were great' to 'look how young we were' and remembering all the stupid things we were doing to each other when we didn't know what we had.”

ML: You've got that built-in Journey fan base that wants to hear you do that melodic rock again...

SP: “Yeah, exactly, but I don't know if I want to become a parody of myself.”

ML: If you do a comeback album and deliver something the fans aren't expecting...

SP: “I may do a comeback album or I may do one track; load it onto ITunes and go home. I don't know.”

ML: So it is something you're thinking of?

SP: “I don't have management... I have completely shut down the store. The store has been shut down forever. I own steveperry.com, but I haven't flown it. I've really had to let go because emotionally... to be perfectly honest with you, if I do decide to sing again and record again, I'm going to do it for the right reasons. It's not going to be because people want a comeback record that's calculated... people come up to me all the time and say 'you should do a big band album like Rod Stewart. It would sell.' That's probably true...”

ML: It is true – it would sell gangbusters...

SP: “And?”

ML: But if you don't like it, what does that matter?

SP: “I have a spin on that. I would do that differently than anybody else's, but I can't talk about it and I don't necessarily want to do a big band album.”

ML: And I imagine you don't want to do an album of ten 'Open Arms' or ten 'Oh, Sherry'...

SP: “That's right. I don't want to sit there and (sings) 'start spreading the news...' I don't really.”

ML: It would be interesting to get you singing again and with all due respect you are one of the greatest voices of the last thirty years...

SP: “That's so kind of you to say because they've only been saying that in the last five years. They certainly weren't saying that years ago. We were considered the band that wasn't cool. It was the bands with the skinny ties, the checkered shirts and the Flock Of Seagulls' haircut that were considered cool. We were not considered timeless at all, but as time has proven and we're fortunate that the music has made the voyage with us so far.”
ML: What do you attribute that too? Here we are in 2005 and you're hawking a show from 1981 and it's still timeless, it still sounds great, the musicianship is tight and the vocals are perfect... What is it about Journey that got you this far? Why didn't you just fade away like the Flock Of Seagulls?

SP: “Well, it's because it was a real band. When I joined them they were a band and when we replaced Ansley Dunbar with Steve Smith – it became a bigger band. When Jonathan Cain came along and I started writing with him... I had written all songs with Neal from 'Anyway You Want It' to whatever and that was one kind of band, but when Jonathan came along we turned another corner in the evolution of the band. This particular tour (Escape) was the first time Jonathan was onstage and it turned the corner. The work we had done previous had built a fan base and now that they were really showing up we were turning a corner musically and they just liked it. We didn't have any calculated things. There was nothing pre-calculated about the music ever. Never did we second guess, it was just 'let's do this. Ok.' If you listen to the albums, I don't know how many groups you'll find that have 'Separate Ways' and 'Still They Ride'. That's left and right. You go onto Escape and you'll get 'Who's Crying Now', 'Open Arms' or from other albums 'Dead Or Alive', 'Where Were You'... these are all on the DVD by the way, but we were all over the map. 'Good Morning Girl' was a little acoustic piece. 'Patiently' was the first song I wrote with Neal when I was waiting to get into the band and I had dreams of being a singer in a rock 'n roll band. I sat in a hotel with him while he was out opening for Emerson Lake and Palmer and I wrote 'Patiently' and that's what those lyrics are about – 'for your lights to shine on me. For your song inside of me this we bring to you.' That's what it's about. I was dying to get into this thing, but from the heart stand point - not from a calculated stand point and today everything is so calculated. Don't you think? The music business has become like the movie business...”

ML: Also, the music business doesn't develop an artist anymore. It's give me a hit single and get the heck out of here...

SP: “Isn't that sick? The guys who helped build the Journey fan base were record label executives like Al Teller and all the guys that worked at the label at the time that are escaping my mind. They helped believe in the band and they would go three, four singles deep into every album...”

ML: They would also go three albums... You had three albums to make it. First one was the trial, second was the hit or miss and the third one was the do or die...

SP: “More than that. We had Infinity, Evolution, Departure, Escape...”

ML: They would give you three albums minimum to develop. Now, you get single one maybe two...

SP: “That's right. It's like television. They release a TV show and if the numbers aren't good – it's cancelled next Tuesday. It's unbelievable – there's no faith anymore and nobody believes anymore. That's why it is the way it is. There are corporate executives that should say to their superiors 'this is the single – we have to go on it' would they ever say that? No. Would they ever say 'the band is crazy about this song and believes in this song? No, they won't say that either. Will they ever say 'I went and saw the show and this song is getting a lot of audience response. I don't know why, but we should go on it and ask radio to play this... NO! They'll do what's calculated and safe.”

ML: They want to appeal to the lowest common denominator and get as much money out of it as possible...

SP: “They are not making decisions based on belief. They are making decisions based on fear. They assess it and say 'well, let's not do this and we shouldn't do that... so, what's left? Let's do that.' They're decision making process is based on calculated fear assessment. Instead of – 'wow – I don't know what it is about this one song, but I sure do like it.' Those guys are gone; they just don't do that anymore. I'll tell you a quick story – 'Who's Crying Now' that song was intentionally recorded and arranged so that the solo (back then songs had solos) was at the end. The song goes out on a solo and that song is long. The record label came to us and said 'as soon as the solo starts you'll have to fade it or radio won't play it.' I said ' well, radio can fade out and go onto the news. I don't care, but we're not going to cut the solo.' They insisted that if it said it was four minutes fifty seconds or whatever radio won't even add it to their playlist. So, I told them to put whatever on it... three minutes whatever, but I'm not fading the solo and they were adamant about it and said we were killing the song. It's not going to be a hit because you won't fade it, so just fade it. It's no big deal. I said 'look – Neal played the most beautiful solo on this thing. It's simple, heartfelt and feels timeless; the melodics are timeless and I do not want to kill that solo. So, fought for it, the song becomes a hit and the stations never pulled out of the solo. When it goes to that melody (sings melody) – it's timeless and it's not the melody that's in the song. It's another melody; so is that so wrong? No! So, I'm glad we fought for it against all odds. Plus, Neal would have been really crushed... he would have been destroyed.”

ML: I'm surprised the record company didn't go ahead and just cut if off...

SP: “They would do that today which is why I'm glad I'm not signed right now. I would probably take a bat to somebody's desk.”

ML: That's the one new advantage, if you were to release new music, you don't have to go through a label. You can go through ITunes...

SP: “Isn't that amazing? I think the Internet is so freeing to music as we've come to know it. I think it's the best thing that has ever happened. It's phenomenal because as an artist you've never had so many choices. You just never have. I could get somebody right now to build my own site and put downloads on my own site. I've yet to do it though.”

ML: Is there a reason?

SP: “I'm just a little bit... you're going to ask me 'what is it, right?' But I don't know.”

ML: It's the question everybody has been asking, right?

SP: “No, we've been talking mainly about the DVD and the performances.”

ML: I apologize...

SP: “We can talk about this. It's ok. I don't know – it's a tough one... (pauses)... Twenty-four years ago when I did that DVD – when we recorded it for MTV... (pauses) It was a different landscape at that time, of course. MTV had aired for the first time in August of '81 and three months later we were recording this for MTV. It was a brave new world with this video music thing... (pauses) It was a different time – we had a mission as a group... (pauses) I emotionally was unstoppable... (pauses) My mother was alive and pulling for me. My father (though they weren't together) was pulling for me. My grandfather was alive... The whole landscape of that has changed... (pauses) You lose some of the incentive that you didn't realize was driving you to do good... to do it... to do IT. Now, that it's been done I'm trying my best to digest it. When I was doing this DVD, it was an emotional rollercoaster that I didn't expect. A friend of mine warned me because he knows me well. He's a TV director and he said 'I know you. You're going to get in there and be mixing and editing and it's going to be rough on you.' I said ' Ah, no biggie man – c'mon I did the other DVD.' And he said 'but that was assembling videos and synching up new masterings. This is going to be different. It's like making a mini-film.' And oh, God – he was right. It drove me... It dragged me through a plethora of emotions that I didn't expect. When I heard 'Open Arms' I got choked up. There are certain vocal things I did in 'Open Arms' that I'm not sure I'll be able to pull off exactly like that again because it was such a moment and I had reached beyond the master recordings to what I knew it could be. For example the lyric in the second verse 'wanting you near' that lyric is sung exactly the way I wanted it to be sung and I didn't know I hit it. I didn't know I got it. So, I'm sitting there mixing and watching the QuickTime video because I have to pay attention to audio and visual... so I'm watching it and just being dragged through... (pauses) through the whole thing again. The Whole Thing AGAIN! I'm dragged through our time together. I'm dragged through, 'what happened?' We were great together and then I'm dragged through the people who thought we weren't great and who used to belittle us in the press and I thought 'fuck them too'. How can that be fucked up? We were great! See you assholes... you know what I mean? We weren't fucked up – you used to tell us we were faceless and corporate and all these horrible things and all we were trying to do was keep our focus and play what we loved. Now, I'm looking back at it for the first time as a person in the audience... I'm not in the band and it's been years since I've been in the band. It's been years since I've been on that stage. I'm an older guy and this young kid up there on that stage believed in what he believed in and damned if it wasn't pretty good and I got emotional about it. I just felt vindicated. I really felt vindicated for my beliefs and my faith and my tenacity that I got such a bad rep for... it's just that I was NOT going to lay down. Betty Davis said “if you have a bad reputation – you must be doing something right.'

ML: She's absolutely right. It must really feel good after all these years. I was around back then and remember people complaining about your voice, that you were corporate and everything you just said...

SP: “They said it about a lot of groups.”

ML: I'm a Kiss, Cheap Trick and Aerosmith fan – all of those groups got dragged through the mud back then...

SP: “Foreigner got hit... everybody got it. They all were faceless.”

ML: Except Kiss – that only had a face, but no music talent, right? Not only did those groups survive, but are still setting trends to some extent. Anybody who looks into melodic rock has to start at Journey – you just have to.

SP: “And that's a big legacy to live up to. At the time, it was just living up to your own expectations. Now, it's become something else. Something you always hoped it would become. How do you deal with that?'

ML: I have no idea...

SP: “By the way if you're going to ask these questions – we kind of have to answer these questions as to what was going on with me back then versus now. It's a perspective that's interesting. A lot of it too... the music at that time... you were forced to perform everything. There was only one way to sell what you believed in and that was perform it and that was going to be live. MTV was three months old when we recorded this DVD. It was baby in diapers – it had no idea what it was. It had no power and I tried to go back to MTV and see if they had other elements or extra footage lying around and they had nothing because they burned over the tapes of that night. All I had was the final cut because they had no idea what they were going to become. They were too new and nobody had a clue. They were directionless. They were writing the pages as they were turned... everybody was and that reckless abandon is what created what we are calling timeless now.”

ML: Musically, there has been a loss of that 'fire' in bands and in MTV... there is no soul to anything anymore. It's all calculated...

SP: “They always said MTV would change the face of music forever and in some ways it did.”

ML: It did – for the worst.

SP: “It took the performing aspect out of it, but now they are getting back to it. Now, they realize that it's a great medium to promote performance. For a long time, it became a video lip-synch issue and it gave everybody credibility even if they're not performers. There's a lot of careers built on artists that have never performed, but they can make a great video and make a great record... and they were 'artists'. Then they'd decide to go on tour and work that up. A lot of them would run tapes, a lot of them were fake and would have mouth and ear pieces with little microphones in front of their faces and dance around. It was a totally different thing.”

ML: In terms of this performance – the band.. the five guys on stage (Steve, Ross, John, Neal and you) was that the ultimate line-up? Does this represent Journey well?

SP: “That's the quintessential line-up. Although, I don't want to take any credibility away from the line-up that existed with Greg Rollie and Ansley Dunbar. That was the earlier line-up that I joined and had it's own musical direction that was valid. It was a different kind of a band, then it changed when we got Steve Smith in there and Greg Rollie stayed. Then we got Jonathan Cain and I think the band turned a bigger corner. That became the Escape line-up that launched itself to another series of albums, songwriting and performing that was bigger. By bigger I mean it had a bigger pronounced sound to it... a mightier unity of the players than the previous one.”

ML: Jonathan brought a lot to the band... vocals, backing vocals and overall musicianship.

SP: “Yeah – right! And Steve Smith was a fusion drummer who was with Montrose... that's where we saw him play every night and I turned to Neal and said 'this is the guy we should have in our band. This is what we need.' I admit I was making trouble, but I had a gut level... that we had to look at making a change.”

ML: It was a good change...

SP: “Well, time has shown that to be the case, but at the time it had a mixed response.”

ML: By the way – with the producing of the DVD... is that something you see yourself doing more of?

SP: “I love it. I really love it. It's very very emotional and stressful though.”

ML: In general or doing the Journey stuff?

SP: “Both.”

ML: Do you want to do other bands?

SP: “I have shown up many times with little groups... friends of mine and I'll be a fly on the wall and help them. I do it all the time for fun and for free. I've be doing that for years.”

ML: Do you want to sell your services as a record producer? Hey record companies call me up...

SP: “No. I don't want to necessarily do that. There's a couple of groups I would like to do a track with here or there.”

ML: But not a whole album from conception to the final mixes?

SP: “It would depend on the group. If I believed in the group I would do it. If I believed in the song, the singer and the band. It would be easier doing my own thing, but that comes with a whole other set of demons.”

ML: If you did your own thing would you want to produce it?

SP: “Just yesterday, I was thinking for the first time ever 'should I just let it go' because I'm always so involved and that's the problem. I know what I want to hear and it can go against someone else's vision, but at the same time my own vision has built my own direction and sound. So, what am I doing? Do I want to become Cher and 'Do You Believe In Love' and let someone make a left turn for me? I don't know – I'm not that kind of guy. I do hear things completed in my head and try to follow that lead, but I don't know. I do know that I worked hard on this DVD and tried to make it sound contemporary sonically. That's why I chose Bob Ludwig and Allen Sides.”

ML: Satisfied with the final product?

SP: “I'm completely satisfied with the project, but there will always be issues. The sound quality I hear in the studio, you lose when... you know someone will make an MP3 of it. That changes everything. You do one thing to it; it changes it. Echoes respond differently. Digital converters eat echo and it loses some of the lush echoes you worked so hard on. That's just something I have to live with. There are certain things that are easier to do logistically with ProTools on a live project like this than with tape. There were certain pops and clicks in my special wireless mic. It had a lot of vocal qualities that I loved, but it also had a lot of problems because it was transmitter microphone. It would over modulate and there was a couple 'pffs'... it's everywhere and with ProTools you can get rid of it. It's fantastic. So, I was able to clean up problems that back in the day could not have been fixed. It enhanced the performance by not letting something like that distract it. You're in a restorative mode like when you take an old painting and just try to clean it up.”

ML: Any other touch-ups?

SP: “There really wasn't a lot of touch-ups on this. There really wasn't. Not one re-record was done. I will tell you... we did two shows and on the day-off between those shows... we knew we were on tour and we knew it would be aired on MTV with a quick mix. So, we got around one mic and sang the backing vocals against ourselves. So, that we could blend that studio thing we do with the live vocals; so that they would have a little shimmer to them. That's the only thing we did. We called that 'vocal help.'”

ML: That was just for MTV?

SP: “It's on the DVD too.”

ML: But the original ones from way back then?

SP: “Yeah, the band was on tour three months ago and we aren't speaking. So, believe me - we weren't in a room together.”

ML: It speaks volumes about the band that you didn't have to...

SP: “Well, it was great performance. It really was a moment where... I didn't like walking up to the back of the venues and see a recording truck because I would get a little moody and cause a stink about it. I didn't like the idea of having tape running. I like the shows to be free and have nothing hovering over them like 'the tape is running' because it changes the band's ability to be reckless and free. I like reckless and free.”

ML: It also make you over aware...

SP: “It instinctually makes you over aware that tape is running. You get more concerned that things be a little more performed, I'm so glad that there's no fall back to the masters to this performance in Houston. I think once the show started nobody cared... we just played. Though, I did not like to video or tape shows – I'm so glad that this one was because I would have been wrong to not have this one. I would have been really wrong.”

ML: It captures the essence of the band...

SP: “It really does and there's another laying around that we don't know what's going to happen to from 1983 – JFK Stadium in Philly. We had 14 cameras running film.”

ML: You want to produce that?

SP: “I don't know if my heart could take it. By the way I do want to say when you watch the DVD turn the Dolby to off. There is no need for it. It's been digitally recaptured. It will severely change the fidelity.”

ML: Anything else to promote or plug?

SP: “There's a band I like. I think they're fun and reckless called The Rock 'N Roll Soldiers. The lead singer is a talented kid called Marty... they're working on a record right now which I think is coming out on Atlantic. I like it – I believe in them.”

ML: Thank you for your time...

SP: “Thank you very much for your candid questions and your sincere feelings about this. All this is good stuff and I don't mind talking about the fears and where I'm going and where I'm not going and where I've been. I'm trying to put my arms around all of it and when I'm done with that... who knows? I'll either sing some more or maybe just be glad that we had what we had.”

ML: Well, I think I speak for many when I say – we got to hear you sing some more...

SP: “I'll do my best – thank you. I would like to sing with the Rolling Stones one night and if by chance, I record something let's talk again.”